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To: RealMuLan who wrote (33324)	5/8/2003 4:52:56 PM
From: marcos	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

'You fools! Don't you realise what it means if the Chinese stay? Don't you remember your history? The last time the Chinese came they stayed one thousand years. The French are foreigners. They are weak. Colonialism is dying out. Nothing will be able to withstand world pressure for independence.' - Nguyen That Thanh, a/k/a Ho Chi Minh, 1945, in speaking to pro-chinese elements within his government ... typed in from page 24 of the Michael MacLear book, Viet Nam the ten thousand day war That's true what Ray says, Yiwu, as stated, far as i know .... the vietnamese had been being invaded for two thousands years at least, by chinese warlords and others like the Mongols .... long-standing antipathy between the peoples there is not, no, but there has been a long history of strife there ... as in many places Another thing that has come up in recently de-classified US documents, is considerable evidence that the chinese government was pleading with the US around 1970 to not pull out their troops, because to do so would upset the balance of power in the region ..... exactly the reasoning for this, i've forgotten if i ever knew, but it did show up on some political thread here at SI quite recently Over the years of their struggle 1945 to 1980 at least, the vietnamese did find it much more comfortable dealing with the russians than with the chinese .... which seems fairly logical, since the russians were not adjacent to them, sharing a border, so they were perceived as less of a possible threat ... plus, there just wasn't the history of being invaded by russians .... but it was more just the fact they weren't contiguous, imho Of course their first choice had been to deal with the US ... Ho Chi Minh had begged Truman in 1945 to support their independence, or at least not to support the french re-colonisation .... a major Archimedes Patti of the OSS had given him encouragement on this course, he thought quite genuinely that it was the wisest for the US and for all concerned .... but other voices were listened to, in the end, like de Gaulle's

To: RealMuLan who wrote (33324)	5/9/2003 12:19:56 AM
From: Raymond Duray	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

Yiwu, Thanks for your note. It's always healthy for the debate to get a viewpoint from an entirely different perspective. :) Re: are you implying that Viet Nam has exactly the same length of civilization as China? I believe the "Middle Kingdom" view would have been that the Vietnamese were troublesome barbaric neighbors who could be counted on, grudgingly, to pay tribute to the Chinese aristrocracy (aka militaristic imperialists). The Vietnamese view, necessarily, wasn't quite as flattering to the Chinese warlords. :) *** Re: That is not true either. Of course, China was very poor compared to the ex-Soviet Union in 60s, so in absolute monetary term, maybe, just maybe, Soviets gave Ho more money. Ahem, you can't have it both ways. Yes the Russians provided more war material than the Chinese. The Chinese certainly were useful in transporting these weapons and ammunition. And providing rhetoric, though we both know talk is cheap. :) *** Re: And that is why it is not that hard to heal the wound. This sounds extraordinarily like certain southern U.S. citizens saying that the theft of half of Mexico in 1848 is just so much water over the dam and better forgotten. <g> At least it plays well on U.S. television. :) Cheers, Ray