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Politics : Support the French! Viva Democracy! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: epicure who wrote (754)	5/11/2003 2:17:24 PM
From: 49thMIMOMander	Respond to of 7830

Jefferson, to my knowledge (source, C-SPAN), considered his "main goal" that "reading and writing skills for all boys and girls" smack in the middle of that period in history, the enlighment. He, as all americans should know due to his "illegal mistress", also had close contacts and visited (with that "mistress") France. The "funny" thing is that although the "honor" of starting it all goes to Roussauax (sp??), his book "Emile" (books were the way to debate publicly before radio-TV) on a _girl_ from "humble backgrounds" who through "education" could reach and surpass the superior level of the priviledged elite... (note, this was also a time of Ayn Rand, the perfect hero, already before Napoleon usually on a sexy White Horse) Roussaux, on the other hand, is (to my understanding) something of an "immoral pariah" in USA, probably a result of demands on the Victorian "cleanliness", "virtues", "right??ness", that is, all those funny historic words which are (still) so popular in USA. That is, although I just try to catch any info every now and then, I have a suspicion of aspects like "women should shut up in the church" and also the laws against teaching negroes to read... much the same as the issues of voting rights,etc.. (however, noting that "regular" women had more than enough work at home and mortality giving birth was high in those days) That is, somewhat different situations for the "elite" and the general population, that is, one aspect of Jefferson was also "independent, agrarian, self-owned family-farmers" (despite his slaves, which he "educated" but probably did not dare to turn "free"). This aspect is one of the basics in Scandinavia, with some history of "aristocracy", large landowners (sharecropping) but more in terms of "small, independent family farmers" and very little fundamental religous mumbojumbo and no "slaves" since the 1200s (although allowed for visiting foreigners) That is, it is no accident that Finland is now ruled by two women, president and prime minister, and that Ayn Rand was so envious of finnish women. Ilmarinen Btw, however, France did have to wait until around 1968 until some severe student-riots fixed some "aristocratic elite" aspects of their higher education, the universities. (much as the USA habit of extra points and doors if parents and grandparents,etc has been blessed by the same university..)

To: epicure who wrote (754)	5/11/2003 2:28:04 PM
From: 49thMIMOMander	Respond to of 7830

Btw, "liberal" is another funny concept, word from those times. Outside USA "liberal" means "freedom", freedom from the "aristocrates", the church, the royals, etc,etc.. as well as "free trade" vs the "protectionism", additionally against slavery, colonies,etc.. That is, some of which, to my understanding, is now connected to USA "libertarianism", although usually defined as "neo-liberalism" or "vulgar-liberalism". I hope I will at some point run across a history on how "liberal" got the meaning "far left" in USA... "Liberal" was obviously "radical" at those times. (which also were mostly 2-party times, luckily for only some short time and to only some degree in scandinavia too) Ilmarinen Another aspect is, I believe, the "potato-liberalism" of England, the freedom of starving irland (the potato-famine), to have fun in the colonies and great domestic industrial slums..