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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: LindyBill who wrote (98643)	5/20/2003 11:52:29 AM
From: JohnM	Respond to of 281500

There is no doctrinal separation of Church and State in the Koran. This is Qutb's big point in his books. How the Greeks got ahold of Christianity and put in the mind/body dichotomy. He was very much against this view. There is a doctrinal separation in Christianity. "Render unto Caesar" does it. Islam has separated the two only when the local clerics went along with it. This may well be part of the problem then, Bill. You are reading the Koran through Qutb's interpretation or, rather, reading Qutb through Berman's interpretation, etc. Neither of us has read enough not only in the Koran but in the viability of multiple interpretations to get all hot and bothered about what the theology says. The point I see that Jacob makes and, I assume, Steven makes, that there are Islamic countries with a separation of church and state, should make this point. As for its binary character--west has it, muslim countries do not, I disagree. The structure of power in most countries in the west maintains that but the religious right in the US wishes to traduce the boundary: their view of the abortion struggle is that it's theological so the state should defer to their theology; the passionate talk of pledges of allegiance; faith based charities; Robertson, et al views that 9-11 was payment for our secularism. There is an ongoing struggle here. Different groups read the founding documents differently.

To: LindyBill who wrote (98643)	5/20/2003 2:14:31 PM
From: Sam	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

<<There is a doctrinal separation in Christianity. "Render unto Caesar" does it. Islam has separated the two only when the local clerics went along with it. >> Although fundamentalists like to deny it, interpretation is everything, and changes constantly, for both Islam and Christianity. People invariably begin with what they want, then they "interpret" the text to get it, ignoring anything that might contradict their preferred interpretation. The western Church in the fourth through sixth centuries made the Taliban look moderate, as they threatened, pillaged, ransaked, burned and looted pagan sites, temples, books, libraries, etc of all sorts in their zeal of doctrinal "purity." The Church in the 15th and 16th centuries is famous through Machiavelli, Guiccardini and other writers for its temporal pursuits and its justifications for pretty much anything the Pope and/or Cardinals wanted to do. It is either just a little disingenuous or ignorant to suppose that somehow Christianity is intrinsically more amenable to a church/state separation than other religions. Well, correct that--it is a lot disingenous or ignorant.