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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: thames_sider who wrote (98878)	5/23/2003 5:50:10 AM
From: bela_ghoulashi	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

The men on the ground knew nothing of this. They cannot be faulted personally, as individuals, as men in combat, for not having the benefit of hindsight beforehand. As I said, the article is petty Monday afternoon quarterbacking. It's all so simple afterwards when the results are in and the facts are clear. But life isn't like that, and war certainly isn't. The men who went in, yes, I respect them. The men who planned the operation, yes, I respect them. This was not a term paper they were writing. This was a potentially life and death situation. They would have been irresponsible to view it as anything less. If they had failed, if circumstances had been different, they would have been crucified for failing, by the same people who now want to crucify them for succeeding. This whole attitude that wants to slight the purpose and the dedication of the men personally involved in this effort is petty, carping bullshit.

To: thames_sider who wrote (98878)	5/23/2003 1:43:36 PM
From: jjkirk	Respond to of 281500

Re: They presumably didn't know that there was no danger at the start; but if it was as smooth as said, with no opposition, then they might have guessed. The "hostage rescue" raid drill was added to the standard set of American military drills in view of the fine raid the Israelis pulled off at Entebbe, and in response to the Iran-Carter hostage fiasco. The raid is planned out to the nth degree...choreographed to the uninitiated civilian observer...just as were anti-ambush drills in VietNam and bunker-assault drills in WWI & WWII. Intricate battle drills are a continuous part of peace-time training. As long as the plan is succeeding, it continues as planned...choreographed, if you will, since we may use whatever visual, aural, physical, electronic, lethal and non-lethal means to accomplish the mission. "Smooth" is not an indication that there is no opposition...it only means that you have dissuaded them from opposing you at the moment. For a raid commander to turn a tactical raid into an administrative evolution would be the height of folly and a recipe for disaster. You may have missed the fact that American soldiers and Marines are warriors with the primary mission to close with and kill the enemy...to accomplish the mission...minimizing the loss of American lives is the first subset, or secondary mission...limiting collateral damage and enemy casualties are somewhere down the list....playing to the press not on the list at all...accomplishment of the primary mission is the sine qua non of success in battle. Re: It's more black comedy than high heroism. Or are you suggesting that smashing into a hospital (and, according to the fuller reports, doing it a great deal of damage) - meeting, obviously, no opposition - and seizing a patient who the hospital is treating with the best of its limited means and has already tried to return, portraying this as a brave rescue is honourable? Are you suggesting that only dead soldiers are honorable? You think we would purposefully reject the return of one of our MIAs. The black comedy is in the mind of anyone who thinks that we would fail to exhaust all means necessary to recover our MIAs...that we would gin up such a charade...for God's sake, the American military values the lives of our citizens and our fellow soldiers...as does the British military...all honorable men and women...I would encourage all who think otherwise to get a life...make a difference in this world...enlist in in the military service of your country. "Some people live an entire lifetime and wonder if they have made a difference in the world. Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Reagan

To: thames_sider who wrote (98878)	5/23/2003 5:06:52 PM
From: Hawkmoon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Or are you suggesting that smashing into a hospital (and, according to the fuller reports, doing it a great deal of damage) - meeting, obviously, no opposition - and seizing a patient who the hospital is treating with the best of its limited means and has already tried to return, portraying this as a brave rescue is honourable? You've obviously never served in the military, or at least in a line combat unit... They had NO IDEA that this hospital wasn't being used for military operations, in a like manner as many other hospitals in Iraq. It would have been utterly negligent for them to treat the situation differently than they did. Hawk