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Politics : Should God be replaced? -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Greg or e who wrote (15530)6/6/2003 5:38:12 PM
From: 2MAR$  Respond to of 28931
 
That speech was given back in 1971 huh ? Almost the equivelant of the middle ages hehe ....

but even more backwards , splintered divided and fragmented .<g>

Here you might like to update your definition of modern world Pantheism a bit , it is both highly personal and expansive , to match the present sentiment of the revealed natural sciences and physics which the seeds of were found in the foundation of ancient philosophies as it was found also in many ancient primitive tribal cultures , long before Christianity.

One example of World Pantheist's Creed here ,
(no more priests and tele-evangelists , oh my ! )
hometown.aol.com



At the heart of pantheism is reverence of the universe as the ultimate focus of reverence.
and for the natural earth as sacred.

Natural pantheism - Pan for short - has a naturalistic approach which simply accepts and reveres the universe and nature just as they are, and promotes an ethic of respect for human and animal rights and for lifestyles that sustain rather than destroy the environment.

When scientific pantheists say WE REVERE THE UNIVERSE we are not talking about a supernatural being. We are talking about the way our senses and our emotions force us to respond to the overwhelming mystery and power that surrounds us.
We are part of the universe. Our earth was created from the universe and will one day be reabsorbed into the universe.
We are made of the same matter and energy as the universe. We are not in exile here: we are at home. It is only here that we will ever get the chance to see paradise face to face. If we believe our real home is not here but in a land that lies beyond death - if we believe that the numinous is found only in old books, or old buildings, or inside our head, or outside this reality - then we will see this real, vibrant, luminous world as if through a glass darkly.
The universe creates us, preserves us, destroys us. It is deep and old beyond our ability to reach with our senses. It is beautiful beyond our ability to describe in words. It is complex beyond our ability to fully grasp in science. We must relate to the universe with humility, awe, reverence, celebration and the search for deeper understanding - in many of the ways that believers relate to their God, minus the grovelling worship or the expectation that there is some being out there who can answer our prayers.

This overwhelming presence is everywhere inside you and outside you and you can never be separated from it.

Whatever else is taken from you, this can never be taken from you.
Wherever you are, it's there with you.
Wherever you go, it goes with you.
Whatever happens to you, it remains with you.

When pantheists say WE REVERE AND CARE FOR NATURE, we mean it with just as much commitment and reverence as believers speaking about their church or mosque, or the relics of their saints. But again we are not talking about supernatural beings. We are saying this:

We are part of nature. Nature made us and at our death we will be reabsorbed into nature. We are at home in nature and in our bodies. This is where we belong. This is the only place where we can find and make our paradise, not in some imaginary world on the other side of the grave. If nature is the only paradise, then separation from nature is the only hell. When we destroy nature, we create hell on earth for other species and for ourselves.

Nature is our mother, our home, our security, our peace, our past and our future. We should treat natural things and habitats as believers treat their temples and shrines, as sacred - to be revered and preserved in all their intricate and fragile beauty.

1. We revere and celebrate the Universe as the totality of being, past, present and future. It is self-organizing, ever-evolving and inexhaustibly diverse. Its overwhelming power, beauty and fundamental mystery compel the deepest human reverence and wonder.

2. All matter, energy, and life are an interconnected unity of which we are an inseparable part. We rejoice in our existence and seek to participate ever more deeply in this unity through knowledge, celebration, meditation, empathy, love, ethical action and art.

3. We are an integral part of Nature, which we should cherish, revere and preserve in all its magnificent beauty and diversity. We should strive to live in harmony with Nature locally and globally. We acknowledge the inherent value of all life, human and non-human, and strive to treat all living beings with compassion and respect.

4. All humans are equal centers of awareness of the Universe and nature, and all deserve a life of equal dignity and mutual respect. To this end we support and work towards freedom, democracy, justice, and non-discrimination, and a world community based on peace, sustainable ways of life, full respect for human rights and an end to poverty.

5. There is a single kind of substance, energy/matter, which is vibrant and infinitely creative in all its forms. Body and mind are indivisibly united.

6. We see death as the return to nature of our elements, and the end of our existence as individuals. The forms of "afterlife" available to humans are natural ones, in the natural world. Our actions, our ideas and memories of us live on, according to what we do in our lives. Our genes live on in our families, and our elements are endlessly recycled in nature.

7. We honor reality, and keep our minds open to the evidence of the senses and of science's unending quest for deeper understanding. These are our best means of coming to know the Universe, and on them we base our aesthetic and religious feelings about reality.

8. Every individual has direct access through perception, emotion and meditation to ultimate reality, which is the Universe and Nature. There is no need for mediation by priests, gurus or revealed scriptures.

9. We uphold the separation of religion and state, and the universal human right of freedom of religion. We recognize the freedom of all pantheists to express and celebrate their beliefs, as individuals or in groups, in any non-harmful ritual, symbol or vocabulary that is meaningful to them.



To: Greg or e who wrote (15530)6/7/2003 12:59:14 AM
From: 2MAR$  Respond to of 28931
 
....the hippies of the 1960s did understand something. They were right in fighting the plastic culture, and the church should have been fighting it too... More than this, they were right in the fact that the plastic culture - modern man, the mechanistic worldview in university textbooks and in practice, the total threat of the machine, the establishment technology, the bourgeois upper middle class - is poor in its sensitivity to nature... As a utopian group, the counterculture understands something very real, both as to the culture as a culture, but also as to the poverty of modern man's concept of nature and the way the machine is eating up nature on every side.
rationalpi.com
-Francis Schaeffer, Pollution And The Death of Man

* if the atheist, humanist or the pantheist hugs a tree in the forest , and there's no-one there to see it ,
and yet God made & loved the tree long before he even created the universe ....because he knows everything everywhere before it happens , does that make an atheist, humanist or pantheist good believers too ? Or do they really have to sign up with you first and make a pilgrimage to mecca?

;^)

And do they have to invent God first before they choose to love , cherish , honor and respect creation ? Maybe it is possible to find things to cherish in this world and express love without having to invent an "evil" antithesis to define it , and let what is called "God" be just that expansive evolving continuum of interaction we call "Life " ....be self-evident and self-instructing. Love of your fellows was not something that the lord had commanded , but often bloomed a billion times in the hearts of man along the way with the coming of a spring, naturally .

f God treats the tree like a tree, the machine like a machine, the man like a man, shouldn't I, as a fellow-creature, do the same -- treating each thing in integrity in its own order? And for the highest reason: because I love God -- I love the One who has made it! Loving the Lover who has made it, I have respect for the thing He has made.
rationalpi.com
(Francis A. Schaeffer, Pollution and the Death of Man, Ch. 4)

Plant & hug trees and know god and be a good christian (judaism mixed with paganism) ...sounds good to me , and
very pagan/pantheistic...unfortunately not pagan enough by the looks of things today .

( I'll be glad to loan you a shovel.)

;)



To: Greg or e who wrote (15530)6/7/2003 1:33:29 AM
From: 2MAR$  Respond to of 28931
 
1971 ....that was only 6yrs after the Christian Philosophers were lining up at depot stations en masse, set up to burn Beatle records for what John Lennon remarked in a discussion on the wane of Christianity...and it could have been Lennon that got burned if he was in Missippii at the time !

But the Pope forgave him later after he explained ....I don;t think the Baptists ever forgave him though .

those were interesting times , it will be a better world once we have converted you back to the ONE True Pagan Pan~everything Faith of tree~hugging greg .

All you need is Love ....

;-)



To: Greg or e who wrote (15530)6/8/2003 2:42:43 PM
From: Bill Fischofer  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 28931
 
Thank you for the pointer and for the excellent questions. I agree with Schaefer up until the point of exclusivism. Exclusivism says "Your error is a necessary condition for my truth". As such it reveals more about the nature of the "truth" being defended then the real or imagined "errors" it tries to defend against.

I agree with Schaefer that the problem Plato and others had is that their concept of God was not sufficiently "big". I submit for your consideration, however, that this is precisely the same problem that all exclusivist views share. An infinite God cannot be contained in any creed, let alone a finitely recitable one, for it He could then He would not be very "infinite" at all.

The reason why talk about God is confusing is because God is literally beyond reason. As Kurt Goedel first showed in the 1920s and as Gregory Chaitin has since greatly elaborated, reason and rational thought are astonishingly narrow windows onto the whole of possibility. When we step beyond what is rational reason perceives this as paradox. But paradox is unavoidable because it is embedded in the nature of rationality itself. That is the essence of Goedel and Chaitin's work. Thus we cannot rationally understand what it means to be both separate and one because such concepts are not subject to rational analysis any more than is the concept of the Trinity in Christian dogma.

As to what I believe, I believe that the concepts of "life", "love", "freedom", and "truth" are reflections of the same unity. I believe that whatever beliefs we hold about God, to the extent that they are not independent of spacetime, are cultural constructs which reflect their heritage more than they do the divine reality. I believe that God is both consistent with and orthogonal to everything, that the mathematical concept of the continuum is probably the closest we can rationally approach the naming of the nature of God, but that the heart knows that the nature of God is unconditional love.

I believe that God has no needs and that the concept of a needy God is a root of all the ills that have been done in His name throughout history.

I believe that because God has no needs God cannot fail.

I believe that because God cannot fail there is no other who can fail.

I believe that because there is no other there is nothing to want.

I believe that because there is nothing to want there is nothing required.

I believe that because nothing is required, nothing is judged.

I believe that because nothing is judged, nothing is condemned.

I believe that because nothing is condemned, nothing is conditional.

I believe that because nothing is conditional, nothing is superior.

And finally I believe that none of this is new, that it has been known forever and expressed in numberless ways in every corner of the universe and that this knowledge is hidden in every heart, only waiting to be greeted.