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Politics : Foreign Policy Discussion Thread -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Hawkmoon who wrote (5588)6/12/2003 6:03:06 PM
From: michael97123  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 15991
 
The 1967 borders(with adjustments) should be the basis for peace. I dont care what the original zionists thought. I am dealing with facts on the ground as they exist now vis a vis 1967. Israel cannot control the bulk of the West Bank without doing terrible things. They will lose their moral compass. If the Palestinian arabs continue in their national suicide, this may indeed happen but the human cost, the daily pictures in our living rooms will become unbearable and for Israelis the moral cost of their inevitable victory will be disastrous.
Having said all of that, they cannot surrender. Victory and the catastrophe I describe are certainly better than death by shark. And as far as Labor goes, no way to do they want to administer the West Bank and allow settlers to determine israels future. If it werent for arafat and I2, and overwhelming number of israelis would agree with me. Unfortunately events have changed the israeli view its pretty evenly divided now i would imagine. Mike



To: Hawkmoon who wrote (5588)6/12/2003 8:59:27 PM
From: Hawkmoon  Respond to of 15991
 
Alright.. where are my scientists out here???? Because the following article, unless I'm off base here, looks like a perfect example of "junk science"..

My primary question: Since hydrogen is one of the lightest elements on earth, is it not a fact that when released into the atmosphere, it eventually migrates to the Thermosphere, above where the majority of Ozone lies in the Mesosphere???

Thus, how can hydrogen, which is certainly a lighter element than O3 (ozone), impact Ozone quantities??

Thanks for any assist y'all can give..

Hawk

****
Ballyhooed hydrogen fuel cells may have environmental drawback

WASHINGTON (AP) - Widespread use of the hydrogen fuel cells that President Bush has made a centerpiece of his energy plan might not be as environmentally friendly as many believe.

Scientists say the new technology could lead to greater destruction of the ozone layer that protects Earth from cancer-causing ultraviolet rays.

Researchers issued a report Thursday saying that if hydrogen replaced fossil fuels to run everything from cars to power plants, large amounts of hydrogen would drift into the stratosphere as a result of leakage and indirectly cause increased depletion of the ozone.

They acknowledged that much is still unknown about the hydrogen cycle and that technologies could be developed to curtail hydrogen releases, mitigating the problem. But they say hydrogen's impact on ozone destruction should be considered when gauging the potential environmental downside of a hydrogen-fuel economy.

Ever since President Bush earlier this year singled out hydrogen development as a top energy priority, the fuel has been the buzzword in energy debates. Congress plans to pump more than $3 billion into hydrogen research over the next five years in hopes of putting fuel-cell-powered cars into showrooms by 2020. Industry is spending billions more to develop fuel cells, although their widespread use is probably still decades away.

Unlike fossil fuels -- coal, oil or natural gas -- which produce an array of chemicals that pollute the air as well as the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide, a hydrogen fuel cell when making energy releases only water as a byproduct.

But in an article in this week's edition of Science magazine, researchers at the California Institute of Technology raised the possibility that if hydrogen fuel replaced fossil fuels entirely it could be expected that 10 percent to 20 percent of the hydrogen would leak from pipelines, storage facilities, processing plants and fuel cells in cars and at power plants.

Because hydrogen readily travels skyward, the researchers estimated that its increased use could lead to as much as a tripling of hydrogen molecules -- both manmade and from natural sources -- going into the stratosphere, where it would oxidize and form water.

``This would result in cooling of the lower stratosphere and the disturbance of ozone chemistry,'' the researchers wrote, resulting in bigger and longer-lasting ozone holes in both the Arctic and Antarctic regions, where drops in ozone levels have been recorded over the past 20 years. They estimated that ozone depletion could be as much as 8 percent.

Nejat Veziroglu, president of the International Association for Hydrogen Energy and director of the Clean Energy Research Institute at the University of Miami, expressed skepticism about the Cal Tech findings.

``Leakage will be much less than what they are considering,'' he said.

The loss of some of the Earth's ozone layer is of concern because ozone blocks much of the sun's ultraviolet light, which over time can lead to skin cancer, cataracts and other problems in humans.

Ozone depletion has been contained with international treaties banning and phasing out ozone-killing chlorofluorocarbons, or CFCs. But the Cal Tech researchers said huge increases in the concentration of hydrogen in the stratosphere ``could substantially delay the recovery of the ozone layer,'' even if a hydrogen economy is still decades away.

John Eiler, an assistant professor of geochemistry at Cal Tech and one of the article's authors, acknowledged that the concerns raised in the study might eventually be resolved, when more is learned about the hydrogen fuel cycle.

For example, much of the leaking hydrogen might become absorbed in the soil instead of drifting into the sky, he said. ``If soils dominate, a hydrogen economy might have little effect on the environment. But if the atmosphere is the big player, the stratospheric cooling and destruction of the ozone ... are more likely to occur.''

Cal Tech scientist Tracey Tromp, another of the authors, said that with advanced warnings of a problem, a hydrogen energy infrastructure could be fashioned to allow more control of leaks and reduce the adverse environmental impact.

``In the past ... we always found out that there a were problems long after (chemicals or fuels) were long in use,'' said Eiler. He cited the case of CFCs, long considered benign but later found to destroy the ozone layer; and carbon dioxide, which for years was viewed as having few consequences when released from burning fossil fuels, but now is the principal ``greenhouse'' gas linked to potential climate change.

Jeremy Rifkin, a leading advocate for developing a hydrogen economy, said, ``When you move into a new energy source you have to assume there's going to be some environmental impact.'' Still, he said, hydrogen, as a replacement for fossil fuels, ``is our hope for the future.''

``We know we can't continue to burn fossil fuels because the planet is warming up. And we know hydrogen is where we have to head,'' Rifkin said.

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