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Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: MJ who wrote (35442)	6/15/2003 9:46:40 PM
From: 2MAR$	Respond to of 39621

there is a field beyond ideas ....I'll meet you there .....no that is all there was to that ... khamush.com getting beyond "ideas" , not to make a pun...is the idea , i think. ;-) Beyond the "claims & blames" and out into the pure space of non-judgement , and impersonal detached viewing and experience. You know , when the teacher asks you to remind yourself to keep your mind "open" and keep the basics tenants in view when approaching more difficult subject matter . Then late , after learning of all the details of the problem you see the greater picture come into view. What is the divine? ...hmmm... Well that is what religion trys to link up with and is the literal root meaning of the word religion .... "to link up with" . To link up with what ? Well that's the mystery that surrounds every one of us all the time , and keeps us alive and energized . For what ? Some say it's for duty & honor and pride ....and some say it's for humility & submission ....and some say for right and goodness ...and others say it's for non-attachment and liberation.......some describe it as charity and hope others say it's for love and a personal God & creator , but taken as a whole I do not believe that God & Nature are seperate . God may be beyond ideas , but is also contained in the very essence of all those forces happening around and within us all the time , and all those things mentioned above constitute some aspect of that "whole". But in truth i think has more to do with something that should not be personified , and this is what Jesus may have wanted by giving up his own life to help others "awaken" in themselves ...so that others might also "see" God or be linked themselves into that "field" . BY calling the divine the father is understandable , but too many people have taken it too literally I think. All the struggle cease out in that "field", when faith itself becomes obsolete , for you become that living truth , when the warring within you stops . Or the other way around , when the struggle through experience is mastered in yourself , then that field "appears". One treads a delicate line with this , and found many were burned and killed in the past in both Christian and Islam , and became martyrs for the idea that God could be experienced . But if you ask any "real" believer why he has faith , then he should be able to do just a little bit more than say "the bible told me so " , for the scriptures are meant to point to that which is alive and happening right within you here and now. He or she should be able to draw from their own experience from those visits to that "field" out beyond ideas . God to be real must be beyond the realm of all ideas , but that does not intend nothingness...the abscence of conflict maybe , but not nothingnesss. And then and there one's cup may be filled overflowing with just "THAT" , that is . But the true vastness is not out "There" , but in reality --->"in" there .;-) ( Modern physics is approaching this concept now . All that you see , all that you dream including God , is within you and projected by the mind/brain/neural net. ) This is where some have difficulty with understanding Buddha's approach , of emptying yourself in order to be filled. That "paradise" and "land of milk and honey " were always within you , not geographical places . Sort of like in the phrase "The Eternal Lightness of Being"...one steadies oneself like an acrobat internally to be able to be poised enough to dance along with God for little strecthes at a time ...out in that field . Like letting go and letting "God" just be the "actor" . That is very Hindu. Christianity went wrong , very wrong in this ....placing God so out of reach ...hey invented the "Holy Spirit " idea to not leave that door closed , but it's a very big hindrance to many any ways to think that they are fallen and yet at the same time saved . It produce alot of conflict and that/those are the kind of ideas i think that Rumi is trying to get us beyond ...out into that field where struggling ceases to define right and wrong , but be moved entirely at will by the Holy Spirit ...but that holy Spirit is right there in your own being . This is a concept many Christians dislike immensely , this idea of "Being" for it appers to take away from the "book of ideas " and substitutes the actual experience here and now , and not some place else

To: MJ who wrote (35442)	6/15/2003 10:24:26 PM
From: 2MAR$	Respond to of 39621

And rather than "Kingdom"...why not substitute the word "fields"? It works rather well , and has better conotations than the latter i think , don't you ? We have fields of grain from sea to shining shore ....fields of endevour ....fields of time , fields of imagination and even magnetic fields in nature , encircling the earth. The Greeks had their Elysian Fields , and even in contemporary literature , we have the field of dreams. The Bible does have that passage of laying in green pastures , and the "idea" of the pastoral...maybe we could get our "chosen" christian brother "Elect" to become a little more pastoral maybe ? hehe After all , Jesus did speak of himself as a shepard guiding his flock? ;-) I have always thought the Bible, and those Christians interpreting it were a little "off" in the choice of "Kingdom" to describe heaven , as if God needed castle walls and a kingdom like the Pharoah had to surround himself and be defended .<g>.... when such a being being omnipotent needs no defending ...perhaps it is the fear of failing, getting lost in the wilderness out in the darkness away from the safety of the citadel , that makes people seek this idea out. In Buddhism and Hinduism , the idea of the "Kingdom" is described as following an unfolding "path of righteousness " or the Dharma , tjhat must be fulfilled . Sounds so very familiar huh ? Have always wondered to why Christians do not talk more of seeing God , or at least understand that "experience " of the pastoral is very akin to what Jesus may have been sent to convey to them ....it's like they would be committed to an instituion or something. Why would God make such a vast an incredible universe both inside and out , if he didn't want you to see him ? And beautiful images of fresh gentleness in the lamb or baby cows that bring us some much goodness & comfort by their sacrifice for meat & food , clothing , purpose (to shepard them and protect) and milk and butter that were so essential to our lives before . (still do today) very strange... I always thought that . In India , for instance , they are "seeing " God all the time , in all the energies and manifestations in the field of time ...they are not being "idolators" , they just have more tolerance and the vastness of God to shine thru . I am always amazed that "religious" fellows of other faiths never comprehend this of the Hindu . The very core and most important act for the Hindu is the pilgrimage to very sacred places to --->see God . But life is the pilgrimage no ? Since they didn't focus on goats and sheepherding as much as the Middle Eastern Semite tribes did and hebrews , they associated the "Lamb of God" with the cow & Chrishna. In the "idea" behind our own words and language , we are taught to think of the lamb as being so gentle, mild and meek ...but little baby cows are very sweet too! ;-) You see the images and iconography behind the motifs of the different mythos found in all our ideas , but in every religion you see the links . Funny that some religions do not want to link up though and "think" their own "ideas" are the true ones ...their words the most sacred . But it's the "idea" behind the words that lives in reality ...or that "field" beyond struggle of ideas of right and wrong ( where the little lambs and baby cows play) ... ;-) pas·tor·al (păs'tər-əl, pă-stôr'-, -stōr'-) adj. Of or relating to shepherds or herders. Of, relating to, or used for animal husbandry. Of or relating to the country or country life; rural. Charmingly simple and serene; idyllic. See synonyms at rural. Of, relating to, or being a literary or other artistic work that portrays or evokes rural life, usually in an idealized way. Of or relating to a pastor or the duties of a pastor: pastoral duties; a pastoral letter. n. A literary or other artistic work that portrays or evokes rural life, usually in an idealized way. Music. A pastorale.

To: MJ who wrote (35442)	6/15/2003 10:55:45 PM
From: 2MAR$	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

From Rumi..... On knowing God, seeing God and uniting with God. khamush.com; what is samâ? A message from the fairy, hidden in your heart; with their letter comes serenity to the estranged heart. The tree of wisdom comes to bloom with this breeze; The inner pores of existence open to this tune. When the spiritual cock crows, the dawn arrives; When Mars beats his drum victory is ours. The essence of the soul was fighting the barrel of the body; When it hears the sound of the daf it matures and calms down. A wondrous sweetness is sensed in the body; It is the sugar that the flute and the flute-player bring to the listener. this makes a nice finish here : Reason is powerless in the expression of Love. Love alone is capable of revealing the truth of Love and being a Lover. The way of our prophets is the way of Truth. If you want to live, die in Love; and die in Love if you want to remain alive. nice huh ? ;-)