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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: tekboy who wrote (102435)	6/23/2003 3:08:03 AM
From: LindyBill	Respond to of 281500

An interesting comment. Of course, unless the politics is good enough, popular support will evaporate and the details of economic policy will be irrelevant. I have talked to some of the "snowbirds" From Alaska. They tell me people run their lives around the State oil rebate. The Iraqis will line up to get there annual cash, and base their budgets on it. Wrong way to go long term, IMO. But since the Government that they get would probably steal it anyway, they might as well have it.

To: tekboy who wrote (102435)	6/23/2003 5:54:39 AM
From: Sig	Respond to of 281500

<<Concerns similar to Möser's continued to be raised by European intellectuals as time passed, and became increasingly widespread and impassioned. In 1887, the German sociologist Ferdinand Tönnies published his path-breaking Gemeinschaft und Gesellschaft (Community and society), setting the terms of the debate for generations to come. Tönnies asserted that there were two basic forms of social life, that which existed before the spread of markets and that which existed after. In the precapitalist world, community reigned supreme. Commitment to the public good was the highest value, and citizens were bound together by common views and an instinctual, unquestioned sense of social solidarity. The dominance of markets, in contrast, created a type of social organization where self-interests rather than communal interests were paramount and the only bonds between citizens were temporary and shifting relationships of contract and exchange. Although Tönnies intended his analysis to be objective, he was clearly haunted by the sense that modern man had paid a terrible price for the advance of the market -- the loss of communities united by shared ideals and the emergence in their place of meaningless and transitory societal groupings. As he famously noted, "In community people remain essentially united in spite of all separating factors, whereas in society they are essentially separated in spite of all uniting factors." >>> Now there is commentary worth discussing.. Since the the old days of Romans, power and money were in the hands of very few, and its been a battle ever since for those in power to try to retain that power and income. The money could buy armies of mercenaries , to rob and plunder, buy ships the roam the seas, conquer and bring home luxurious trade goods. And thus keep citizens in their rightfull place, poor and subservient to the Kings or rulers- forced to obey. Capitalism, with money in the hands lower class citizens was a big threat- they might be able to buy an army, and overthow the rulers. Carry out other strange ideas and activities not approved of by the church and state,. and in many ways, heaven forbid , upset the applecart or cause pain ( actual thought ) by those in power to respond to new untested ideas. Therefore those whose writing was accepted , who had entrenched positions and education and time enough to write were in debt , mentally, or owed theire jobs to the rulers and not the street rabble and would be inclined to condemn capitalism or change and support the rulers. ( we rule top-down here) Does someone think the heavens are fixed and it is the earth that is moving ? Make him say it isn't so or slap him in prison . Capitalism does allow people time to think, to speculate, to generate new ideas and test new ideas both good and bad ( lets go kill all the sheep farmers who are ruining the land for cattle). New ideas are not compatible with religions which try to establish a firm platform for behavior. Which causes much pain ( thinking ) for the Pope and others. So is Capitalism good or bad, has it been good or bad ? For one thing it has made 1000 Arabian princes and many other in the ME richer than sin. Without the automobile the oil would be worth 10 cents per barrel ( as it once was in Signal Hill) and those peoples would still be poorer than churchmice and traveling the desert on camelback. The good part is that people can live much longer lives and have much greater freedom,(something GWB has just given to the Iraqis with no hopes for personal gains) And the earth can support and feed vast new populations that it once was not able to support. Is that good or bad? To have 500mm or 1 bil more people absorbing earths resources? Try to get one good answer to that question. The bad part is that its been a pain in the butt because it and necessitates change. Some would prefer to belong to a Mafia family, where you know all the rules and simply do what the what Marlon Brando asks and all will be well.? . Sig .