To: stockman_scott who wrote (21138 ) 6/27/2003 1:12:51 PM From: lurqer Respond to of 89467 The threat posed by terrorists and outlaw regimes, they insist, is now so great that the world faces a fundamental choice. One option offers a "humane future" built around an "American foreign policy that is unapologetic, idealistic, assertive and well funded." The other is "a chaotic, Hobbesian world where there is no authority to thwart aggression, ensure peace and security or enforce international norms." Monte, I will definitely take door No. 1. Yet those, obviously, aren't the only choices available. Like many polemicists of left and right, Kristol and Kaplan don't entirely play fair in setting out the choices or describing their opposition. Precisely. First present a false choice, and they say “Your either with us or against us”.The neoconservatives see the overthrow of Saddam Hussein mainly as a way to demonstrate American strength and resolve and thus send a shot across the bow of other rogue states such as Iran and North Korea; that seems largely Bush's intent as well. The internationalists backing the war -- the leading pro-war U.S. Democrats, a handful of Republican moderates such as Hagel and, above all, Blair -- had been hoping for something very different. They wanted the war to demonstrate that the world could unite to cooperatively confront the new dangers of the 21st century; that's why securing UN authorization for the attack was a much higher priority for them than it was for Bush (much less the neocons). I think the “internationalists”, from Blair to Tom Friedman, are waking up to the obvious when it comes to the intentions of those in control of this foray into Iraq.The war over the meaning of the war in Iraq is likely to last much longer than the fighting in Iraq itself Actually other than in the minds of the self-deluded there never has or never will be any war over the meaning of Iraq. For over a decade the neo-cons have made it perfectly clear what they wanted. They have unrelentingly pursued their stated goals with complete disregard to consequences. Alliances that have lasted half a century and more, are tossed aside as irrelevant. Becoming an international pariah is considered secondary. No, the meaning of Iraq for the neo-cons was clear from the start. Anyone that thought anything else was going on, either wasn’t paying attention or was engaged in wishful self-delusion. JMO lurqer