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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Sam who wrote (103516)	6/29/2003 11:33:18 PM
From: bela_ghoulashi	Respond to of 281500

World opinion to oppose Saddam had long since reached its peak and would not have been mobilized by anything less than his own success in acting in precisely the same way we were trying to prevent in the first place. And the same blame would be just as generously ladled out in that scenario as the current one, by pretty much the same people.

To: Sam who wrote (103516)	6/29/2003 11:47:55 PM
From: Ilaine	Respond to of 281500

>> has Saddam become associated with "Hitler" or "Stalin" in your mind that there would never be a "No"?<< Wrong question. You're implying that my mind is made up and also implying that it is closed and also implying that I make spurious comparisons. Well, you are. >>"No man is a good judge in his own cause."<< You know what? I am a trial lawyer, started law school in 1982, more than 20 years ago, and I never read that supposed truism until today. I have read that it's stupid to try to represent yourself at trial, but never heard or read anybody saying you can't know the truth about your own cause. Live and learn? Or maybe it's bullshit. >> when GB and France broke up the Ottoman Empire, they created a political monster<< Maybe, maybe not, but whatever happened, the rest of us have to shoulder our burdens and move on. So boiling it all down - would it make you happier or sadder if Iraq was solved before the 2004 presidential elections? Would you be happier or sadder if Dean actually had a snowball's chance in hell? Enquiring minds and all that.

To: Sam who wrote (103516)	6/30/2003 5:49:04 AM
From: Sig	Respond to of 281500

<<<The question to keep asking, in my opinion, is whether they are better off now than they were before. I think yes..." Is there anything that would make you think "No" as the answer to that question? Or has Saddam become associated with "Hitler" or "Stalin" in your mind that there would never be a "No"? Is this a judgement that you (that is, we, as Americans) are actually entitled to make?>>>> Not a good question unless we want to discuss it into perpetuity. Too many ways to measure the ways in which they could be better or worse"off". Too many years before all effects can be measured. The deed is done, the Iraqis are free of the old ways and if they are not better off they soon will be provided the question is asked " Is this the best action we can take next on behalf of their country" <<<< Suppose a a simultaneous war of liberation and civil war breaks out in Iraq over the next couple of years; will "they" still be "better off" than if we hadn't invaded, if we had merely kept inspectors in, kept tightening the noose, and actually mobilized world opinion to oppose Saddam instead of Bush?>>> The UN or the US will be right on site to prevent that. And if the UN refuses to take action then the US will unilaterally do what is required to give Iraqi citizens a fair opportunity for a good future. . World opinion counts for little- if a vote were taken we would be classified as the rich evil empire, would have to get rid of Israel, change our religion, get rid of our Military and remove all of our overseas bases and then after being rendered defenseless, provide free food and aid to the rest of the world, and still defend our allies when they are under attack. This means we are without a pre-emptive strike capability to prevent any attack on France or other allies and they will just have to suffer though another few years of occupation when the time comes Sig