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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Solon who wrote (70708)	7/10/2003 3:20:10 PM
From: one_less	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

”The question, though, is simply this: Is the desire for well being a natural human principle? and is it one sensible to human concerns, interests, and biology? Or is such a principle external to human concern--invented by some supernatural entity?” That is an excellent question. I am concerned that it is going to be a breaking point in this discussion, as it could be beyond the scope of our ability to use commonly agreed upon concepts; but there is always hope that we can bear with it. I would say that it is perceivable and sensible to human concerns, interests, and biology. However, sometimes “regard for well being” outweighs other concerns such as personal or biological interests. ”How many people even give a hoot about the "well being" of some rapist and killer who has just brutalized their daughter? And even if they did--even if ALL of us did--how does that demonstrate that the priniciple comes from the ether?” A brutal, rapist, killer is not a “well being” IMO. To end the despotism of such an individual would likely be in regard to his “well being.” IMO. I am not omnipotent in my ability to analyse what would actually contribute to his “well being.” However most human beings would agree that allowing him to continue on such a path is not contributing to his “well being.” This is an example of how interests would be outweighed by a regard for “well being.” He may be very interested and invested in this type of activity and find it personally rewarding, as well. ”Certainly, there is sufficient rationale in human biology and human society to suggest that all human principles are indeed pertinent to the subjective self interest of humans.” Oh yes, I have to agree. We operate on our circumstances according to what we objectively or subjectively perceive to be in our own best interests most of the time. It is very individual and relative to some objective ideal that we perceive to exist and that provides direction. We occasionally evaluate our experience afterward and surmise that we were mistaken, that we erred in regard to what was in our own best interests. This gives credence to the idea that an ultimate “self interest” may lie beyond our subjective experience. ”So we have it only on your authority that you did not learn this principle from yourself and other human beings but rather from an Absolute Source apart from human consciousness. This may be an misunderstanding on your part, as I don’t separate this into an either or proposition. ”Or is such a principle external to human concern--invented by some supernatural entity? The position I hold is absolute moral principle is there to be detected and internalized. This is neither an idea of human invention or supernatural invention it is a “just is” type of affirmation. As Jefferson might have put it “self evidence” of what “just is.” There are also observations that we can make regarding events in history or our own experience that provide confirmation for the moral good/bad of certain types of conduct in association with moral principles. ”Millions of experiments have been done on the nature of sound. It can be discussed on the basis of objective data. You have not offered one experiment for our appraisal and consideration as regards your assertion that an absolute principle exists. You offer only the assertion itself--over and over and over again.” Sound is a physical phenomenon that can be discussed as an idea and that is detectable, measurable, observable and analysable using the processes of physical inquiry. Sound also can be held to certain physical principles of time, space, and matter. Ideas of moral principle are not physical phenomena except as they are acted upon according to one's conduct in the world; and so, we are bound to use other methods of observation and analysis to explain them. The human record over the wholeness of time, thus far, provides ample evidence and opportunity for appraisal. <<<… have a positive regard for one’s well-being and the well being of others’ as an absolute moral that we can use to determine the goodness/badness or neutrality of conduct>>> ”It is a principle which you have decided makes sense to you. As I have demonstrated...I don't think it makes sense at all. ok