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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: KonKilo who wrote (104526)	7/10/2003 9:30:38 AM
From: NightOwl	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Hi ShiloCat, Can you expand on those notions of "justification" and "harm" just a tad. I sense that there may be some divergence in POV's on those concepts. If so, it may be that further "explorations" will produce some ground for compromise. Just to break the ice, I'll start by suggesting that in my mind the concept of "justification" is fairly amorphous and rather hard to pin down. "Harm" on the other hand, is easier to define, but it would seem to be formulated based upon those things that I would most fear, rather than the things that my neighbor might fear. I could also point out that my "fears" of harm are often times more damaging than would be the result of those fears if they were made real. In any case, fleshing out these concepts might aid the conversation without you or anyone else becoming the target of tit for tat exchanges. ...Then again, maybe not. <g> 0\|0

To: KonKilo who wrote (104526)	7/10/2003 5:40:52 PM
From: Bilow	Respond to of 281500

Hi ShilohCat; Re: "No matter how much they want to establish democracy in the ME, I cannot see that we are ever justified in attacking a nation that has done us no harm." In the ethical wilderness of the Neoconservatives, the End justifies the Means, even if the End can never be achieved. Sort of reminds one of Communisms eternal promises, doesn't it. -- Carl

To: KonKilo who wrote (104526)	7/10/2003 6:50:05 PM
From: Jacob Snyder	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

<No matter how much they want to establish democracy in the ME...> At first, I thought the NeoCons were misguided idealists. I read the position papers of the American Enterprise Institute, and I thought, "I agree with the eventual goals, but the Means are all wrong, and can't possibly achieve those goals". Now that they have a track record on which to judge them, I've come to the conclusion, that they never were idealists, and never were misguided. They never had any intention of delivering on any of their promises, for freedom/democracy/peace. It was a deliberate sham. I have come to that conclusion, because I cannot find the tiniest shred of evidence, that they have made any attempt to establish freedom. Quite the opposite; their actions, from Afghanistan to Iraq to America, has consistently been to end freedom where it exists, and replace tyranny with tyranny. We are seeing the Israelization of America. We are seeing a program of colonization, fueled by homefront fear. The NeoCon philosophy is a continuation of 19th Century Manifest Destiny. The War on Terror, this is just the American version of Zionism, writ large.