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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Dayuhan who wrote (107331)7/23/2003 7:32:27 PM
From: Brumar89  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Here's some info from some fellows who have studied the subject a bit:

<<<<<
Viet Minh membership was more non-communist (or anti-communist) than communist, and Party participation, while fully known within the Viet Minh, was not advertised externally and thus not generally known by most Vietnamese, nor by many foreigners. Its chairman was Ho Ngoc Lam, a non-communist. Ho Chi Minh, as the eminence gris behind the Viet Minh, granted great latitude to non-Party elements so as to encourage their support and allay their fears, and also because the Viet Minh was based in China and thus heavily dependent on the suspicious Chinese Nationalists (who particularly did not trust Ho, and in fact had him arrested for a period). The Viet Minh was, however, kept under Party guidance, then gradually taken over entirely.
>>>>>>>

216.239.53.104

About the site:
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This site is jointly written and maintained by Nowfel Leulliot (Paris, France) and Danny O'Hara (St Austell, UK). The authors both have long-standing interests in the Indochina War, and hope to bring various elements of this fascinating conflict to a wider audience. We are both wargamers as well as amateur military historians, ...
>>>>>

And here's a non-Communist Vietnamese site pretty unfriendly to HCM's memory:
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On March 9, 1945; Japanese forces overthrew the French in the Indochinese Peninsula and restored independence to Vietnam. The Japanese government as well as King Bao-Dai declared the independent status of Vietnam to the world. Premier Tran Trong Kim formed the first Vietnamese government. However, this period was very short because the Japanese surrendered to the Allies a few months later on August 13, 1945.
Before Japan surrendered to the USA, Ho Chi Minh worked with OSS (Office of Strategic Services), a US intelligence agency. He built up Viet-Minh forces. After Japan surrendered, Japanese forces were still in control of Indochina. They could have crushed Viet Minh forces easily had Bao Dai and Tran Trong Kim requested them to do so. However, King Bao-Dai agreed to transfer his power to Viet Minh because he thought that Ho Chi Minh was working with the USA, and could guarantee independence for Vietnam. On August 19, 1945, at a spontaneous non-communist meeting in Hanoi, Ho and his men stole the leading role to seize power and on September 2, he delivered his Declaration of Independence.
The irony of this declaration was its repeat of what King Bao-Dai had declared earlier. In the declaration , Ho Chi Minh plagiarized a famous statement from the Declaration of Independence of the USA: "All men are created equal." Under his regime's title "Democratic Republic of Vietnam" is the motto - still remaining today - "Independence - Freedom - Happiness," which was again plagiarized from the Sun Yatsen's "Three-People Doctrine."
....
Ho Chi Minh after in power, signed the March 6, 1946 agreement to allow the French forces coming back to Vietnam.
Ho Chi Minh and his men often said that being ruled by the French is better than by the Chinese. This is more like a fool because later the Chinese army units in Vietnam had to withdraw to reinforce their troops in Manchuria against the Chinese Red Army. Chiang Kai Shek at the Yalta Convention refused to control Vietnam. "They (the Vietnamese) are not Chinese, they always rebel against China."
To show his welcome to the arrival of French Special Envoy Sainteny and French military units coming under the March 6 Agreement, Ho Chi Minh instructed people to display flags. Ho showed to the French that people appreciated their coming back..
Richard Nixon, in No More Vietnam, wrote: "While nationalist groups refused to cooperate with the French, the communist Viet Minh chose to collaborate with the French. Ho signed the so-called March 6 agreement that brought the French army back into Northern Vietnam. His greetings were effused 'I love France and French solders. You are welcome. You are heroes.' Some say Ho compromised with the French to force the Nationalist Chinese to withdraw. But one week earlier, China had pledged to remove its army in a separate agreement with France. As to the real motivation of the communists, Ho's right-hand man, Le Duan, later said it was to 'wipe out the reactionaries.' For the Viet Minh, this included all nationalists."
Ho and the French together massacred hundreds of leaders and thousands of rank-and-file members of various nationalist groups. The French gave the Viet Minh military equipment, troops and even artillery support to carry this out. In July 1946, Ho's forces stormed the headquarters of all the remaining nationalist groups while French armored personnel carriers cordoned off surrounding areas. Most of the few remaining opposition leaders were arrested and later killed. (No More Vietnam, Richard Nixon, page 34, 35)
On December 19, 1946, the War of Resistance against the French forces burst out. The French seized control of several cities. Ho Chi Minh and the resistance forces had to withdraw from those key cities and conducted the guerrilla warfare against the French Expeditionary Army.
If Mao Tse Tung had not taken over China in 1949, Ho Chi Minh would have been responsible for turning Vietnam over to France. Since 1949, communist China armed and trained Viet Minh. This led to the Viet Minh victory at the China-Vietnam Border Battle. Later, it was the Chinese artillery that helped Viet Minh to defeat the French at Dien Bien Phu.
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vietquoc.com



To: Dayuhan who wrote (107331)7/27/2003 9:45:16 PM
From: Hawkmoon  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
I hate to sound like a twit, but I really think you need to study the subject a bit more before continuing the conversation.

We let me be a bit more of a "twit" here Steven.. Because NO ONE really knows for certain what Ho Chi Minh's early history was, let alone his real name. But he definitely received formal training in the Soviet Union as early as 1934, and was likely on the Communist payroll much earlier than that during his time in France.

vietquoc.com

HCM was apparently like most people seeking power and control.. He was willing to bide his time to achieve his goals, compromising with rivals and adversaries until he consolidated his power into his hands.

Now how much control he permitted the Soviets to retain over him during this rule is always a question that only the "secret files" would be able to answer...

But I think it's pretty apparent that without Soviet (and Chinese) aid, he was playing both of those communist rivals off against one another, thus insuring he received the maximum amount of support. But the price he paid was that he made a deal with the communist "devil" and that was the form of government they demanded in return for their support.

But we have to ask ourselves if it would have been any different had the US decided to support him in 1944? Maybe so, if we made him dependent enough upon our aid.. But then again, we might have just proven to be one more nation he could play off against our opponents.

Hawk