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To: Seeker of Truth who wrote (36768)	7/31/2003 10:42:43 AM
From: AC Flyer	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 74559

>>I had the good fortune to spend some time in Sweden and the Netherlands. It opened my eyes. Capitalism and democracy are a good fit, provided that we limit extreme wealth. Business people should be allowed to make good profits but not so much that they develop a billionaire class<< Malcolm, the fundamental problem with democracy is you and people like you. Self-absorbed people who lack the capacity to grasp that there are billionaires out there who have earned their billions, who through their prodigious personal efforts have added enormous value to society and have created employment opportunities for thousands. It's people like you, Malcolm, who with their petty jealousies and narrowness of intellect would tear down the mechanisms of wealth creation, brick by brick, until only a shadowy remnant of free market capitalism remains. You are capitalism's weak link.

To: Seeker of Truth who wrote (36768)	7/31/2003 12:07:25 PM
From: RealMuLan	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

Let's see: >>Ordinary people more or less have civil rights, they will probably not be sentenced to jail for something they never did. Basically they can say what they want, etc. << This is pretty much true in China too. The West usually just fixes their eyes on those small handful political dissidents who have taken money from CIA and Taiwanese intelligence agency, and have done something in danger of the national security of China. Personally, I have NO sympathy whatsoever, for their human right to be violated. Note, the term "national security" in China may have been defined differently from elsewhere and there is nothing wrong with it. CPC is for the interest of the majority (at least trying to be). So they will be excused by the majority of Chinese in case they make mistakes, as long as they admitted and correct it. Example: like the anti-rightist movement in 1957 has been overheated and thus wronged a lot of Intellectuals (Zhu RongJi himself is an example) who criticized the gov. But then later the gov. corrected its mistakes and tried to make up whatever it could for those wronged people. Yes, I agree, by law, some basic human right (like have to have a warrant in order to search ones' home...) in China is NOT as protected as in the West. But things are changing. I read that the new law will include some clauses on these sorts of thing. But if those small handful political dissidents think they can do anything they want, they are mistaken. Another thing to keep in mind is: law takes money to maintain, and Chinese gov. is very poor, and could not, even if it wants to, enforces a lot of law. Some officials in some remote areas are corrupted, and violate human right does NOT mean it is a universal practice in China. Some westerners tend to forget this. >>What they totally lack is any influence over government policy. All of this is in the interests of the super-rich. The latter want to be protected against criminal acts of one of their members, and against unjust arrest. They also don't want poor people to have any influence on the government. Since modern life is complicated and the issues are hard to understand, the $ controlled media are used to obfuscate the issues. $ also make the required noise at elections.<< This is so very true, just like what I have seen in the US. Even though China have a lot of corruption going on (no one denies it), the government as least tries to curb it by severe sentences, or even death sentences. When is the last time we heard that the US sentences some white-collar criminals? And I see more not-democratically-elected Chinese government officials do things for the poor in China than those democratically-elected US officials do something for the poor in the US. >>In some European countries the taxes are sufficiently high and progressive that there are not so many rich people. Some examples are Scandinavia and the Netherlands. In such countries there are not only civil rights the people also eagerly vote and discuss national issues. Key issues are taxation and proportional representation. Without these, a complete democracy cannot be established.<< Although I have not lived in N.European countries, I did heard about it. Yes, they do seem to have a relatively real form of democracy. >>In the above sense I really hope that Chinese people will some day enjoy "Western" democracy<< China might have it someday when there is NO superpower on this planet that constantly wants to interfere China's domestic affairs.