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Politics : Politics for Pros- moderated -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: unclewest who wrote (4199)	8/3/2003 9:55:05 AM
From: gamesmistress	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 793794

UW, I don't believe that a lot of NYC public school teachers have a "clean comfortable work environment and no supervision." Some of the schools need a complete physical overhaul just to provide basic comfort - i.e. heat and a/c, and have/need security systems at the door to keep the weapons out. They are supervised, but from what I have read the supervision often makes little sense. (Well, you can say the same for supervision in corporations). I personally feel the salary info is useless in and of itself - it's used as a club by unions and school boards alike. Look how much/little we're/you're making compared to other areas! Look how much/little we're/you're making compared to other professions! There is no context to the real world, to the taxpayers paying the salaries and school expenses. Here in NJ, the teachers in Middletown went on strike over stalled salary negotiations. In particular, they objected to a rise in the medical coverage payment from a flat $200 or $250/year to a range of $250 - $800/year, based on salary. Their rates would triple! People didn't appreciate them! The parents/taxpayers' reaction was, what do you think WE'VE been going thru for the last 10 years with our medical benefits and options being cut, and rates rising? Welcome to the real world, people! Of course, there was no reconciliation between these two positions, and there is still a lot of bitterness and resentment because of the strike.

To: unclewest who wrote (4199)	8/3/2003 10:58:43 AM
From: JohnM	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 793794

Mike, I'll treat this seriously rather than as a shot. The item in this month's Atlantic Monthly makes an interesting and very serious point about teachers salaries, that they have to be half again their present amount to attract reasonably good candidates. You should say ouch!! at that. The argument is twofold. The present generation of teachers were, by and large, underpaid but quite good because of discrimination against women in other professions. That generation of teachers is now retiring. There is no comparable pool of candidates so, if one wishes to have at least, on average, as good as the present pool, higher salaries will have to be paid. The second leg of that argument is about comparative beginning salaries (just out of college) for k-12 teachers. As recently as three years ago, when I knew a bit about it, those were, at best, half that of beginning engineers or students with a bachelors level entering business. In many cases, less. To increase starting salaries for teachers by one-half, obviously, doesn't overcome those disparities, but it does begin to address the differences enough, so the argument goes, to make the profession more attractive. The author further argued that, as part of the tradeoff for higher salaries, the profession would accept procedures for getting rid of the worst and merit pay raises for the best. I addressed this in some posts with Bill in which I argued that the first part of that was not difficult, at least conceptually, but the second was the tough nut. I'm definitely not opposed to the second if fairly implemented but it's not easy to do so.

To: unclewest who wrote (4199)	8/3/2003 8:38:01 PM
From: LindyBill	Respond to of 793794

This is the start of the housecleaning. It is "Powells Generals" who are going. The Generals coming in will be out of SO and Light Infantry. Bull Colonels in Armor and Arty can plan on early retirement. Military: The Army Cleans House NEWSWEEK Aug. 11 issue - In a move widely seen within the Pentagon as a purge, a dozen or more Army generals are being ushered into retirement as the Army's new chief of staff, Gen. Peter Schoomaker, takes over. IN ADVANCE OF Schoomaker's swearing-in last Friday, the Army's acting chief, Gen. John Keane, who is himself retiring, spoke with a list of three- and four-star generals, thanked them for their services and told them it was time to go. Sources say Keane first contacted half a dozen names, but by the end of the week the list had reportedly grown to 11, "with more to come within 30 days," according to one Army source. The Army has a total of 50 three- and four-star generals. A senior Pentagon civilian called the move "housecleaning." Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has made no secret of his dissatisfaction with what he sees as unimaginative Army leadership. Schoomaker, too, is critical of a culture he sees as risk-averse and change-resistant. In comments made privately but now circulat-ing widely in the Pentagon, Schoomaker said recently: "Rumsfeld might think we're at war with terrorism, but I'll bet he also thinks he is at war within the Pentagon ... It's a war of the culture." The list of retirees was, sources say, drawn up in discussions between Rumsfeld, Schoomaker and Keane. Most of those going are being axed not for personal failings but to open up job slots that are viewed as key to Army transformation. But Pentagon spokesman Larry DiRita said any suggestion the moves were at Rumsfeld's behest was "utter nonsense." John Barryhttp://www.msnbc.com/news/947673.asp

To: unclewest who wrote (4199)	8/4/2003 12:06:54 AM
From: Sully-	Respond to of 793794

"50k is outstanding pay for a part-time job. ..... On top of all that, very few established teachers work 40 hour weeks. If they do work summers, they get extra pay." When you look at the total number of hours worked per year for all teaching related activities, most people would be shocked at how overpaid they really are for the real time put in. Most states have a 180 day school year (and even that can be skirted). Teachers have a couple of in-service (partial) days in addition to the 180 school days. Compare that to a cushy Federal employee's full time job after 15 years service. They get 10 holidays & 26 vacation days. In a typical year there are 260 work days +/- 2 days. After taking out vacations & holidays, there's still 224 work days left. And they are 8 hour work days (8:00am - 4:30pm give or take). Even they work a minimum of 42 days more than a teacher every year. If you had said 32 - 34 hours per week when school is in session a full five days, you'd be stretching it for most teachers. You didn't mention that most schools have 1/2 days & shortened days for different events/reasons...... late arrival & early dismissal days for weather..... they all counted as full days worked for the teachers. I've been in schools from Texas to Maine as an auditor for the Dept of Education. Their scheduled day is almost always less than 7 hours face time, not hours worked (arrive 8:00am - day ends 2:45pm give or take). I'm not buying the argument that teachers spend long hours grading papers & preparing plans, attending PTA meetings, etc. Most get a daily lunch break, a free period & many have one study hall as well (where they can freely work on plans, papers, etc.), not considering the time between each class, assemblies, home room & other miscellaneous non-teaching activities. At the end of the school day you better not be near the teachers parking lot as it's dog eat dog to get the heck outta there. Almost every school I've been to has very few teachers who stay late & even fewer who report early.