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Politics : PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: jlallen who wrote (439893)	8/8/2003 9:00:44 AM
From: GROUND ZERO™	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 769670

BJ Billy Bubba Hahahahaahahahahahahahhaa... GZ

To: jlallen who wrote (439893)	8/8/2003 12:16:57 PM
From: steve dietrich	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 769670

Awarded the Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry with Bronze Star, I'm no chicken hawk, been there, done that, don't care to do it again, unless there's a direct threat to the nation. Iraq doesn't qualify.

To: jlallen who wrote (439893)	8/8/2003 12:52:18 PM
From: cnyndwllr	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 769670

Re: >>"Really....?? You need to have combat experience to have an opinion and make policy on war issues??? Is that your take? Where does that leave BJ Billy Bubba? Was he qualified? What is your combat experience record??? Just curious...."<< No, you don't need to have combat experience to have an opinion and make policy on war issues. There are some clues, however, that tend to let you know that SOME leaders could use some emotional investment. I would say some good indications that a leader lacks the humility and wisdom to hate war would be: * A refusal to give credence to the misgivings of men like Powell and a huge number of our retired and active generals who KNOW COMBAT and warned that the PEACE would be difficult and who counseled diplomacy and the importance of creating a world coalition if we were to invade and occupy Iraq. * Barely concealed glee at the progress of a war, as if it was a big game instead of a series of contacts where bodies and lives were systematically being ripped apart. * Saying things like "bring it on" to the other side as our enemies pick off our soldiers as they attempt to keep civil order in a nation where everyone is armed, they don't speak the language and they have no way of knowing which Iraqis are friends and which are enemies. * Placing our soldiers in a terribly dangerous environment without an exit plan while we claim that success is around the corner. It reminds me of the Viet Nam era when the pentagon and various administration were always announcing that progress was being made in pacifying certain areas. Those announcements were made over and over again FOR THE SAME AREAS, because they never, ever, became pacified. * Refusing to engage in a debate over the real purposes for the war while the purported bases for the war are knocked out one by one and families of those that are paying the personal price for the war, some of them with dead family members, are left to wonder, "WHY?" I have NEVER spoken with a REAL COMBAT VETERAN who did not become somber and sad when discussing this or any other war. REAL COMBAT VETERANS, almost to the man, require damn good reasons before they'll go to war and then want every other avenue of resolution tried first. REAL COMBAT VETERANS don't see scorecards with numbers on them when they see lists of dead and wounded on both sides, REAL COMBAT VETERANS have images of real dead and wounded etched in their minds and they know what each of those numbers represent. You don't have to be a real combat veteran to have that perspective, but it's a sure bet that if you don't, you never got within sniffing distance of real combat. And that goes for all the "I was no more than a klick from the front lines" guys too. It is the chickenhawks that are the worst. Men who never went, would have done anything to avoid war, and yet feel that they have something to prove. They become the "tough guys" who are "heroic" because they take on John Wayne rhetoric and are "brave" enough to send others into war. Heroic figures like Rumsfeld, Bush, Cheney and others who the neo-cons see as "tough, heroic and resolute, great Americans." It's all bullshit. The "tough, heroic and resolute great Americans" are 18-23 year old kids who have little understanding of "why," but who are getting killed and whose spirits are getting crushed a little more each day. If Powell or men like him had sent them I would tend to believe that right or wrong, at least they'd been sent by someone who recognized the awesome responsibility he had to use war as a last resort and to do it right. The "bring it on" attitudes of the men that sent them and who keep them there, however, makes it clear to me that they are not fit to lead. So that's why we call them chickenhawks and that's why when we see a chickenhawk acting like war is some game and our team is winning, we want to throw up.