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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Neocon who wrote (72102)	8/8/2003 2:00:09 PM
From: epicure	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

Everything is open to debate. Isn't there a flat Earth society?

To: Neocon who wrote (72102)	8/8/2003 2:02:19 PM
From: one_less	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

Interesting, wish I had time to read it. Even if we look at the culture of Sparta where the claim is that homosexuality was compulsory, we notice that the formation of male identity occured under very disturbing and brutal conditions. Even if we can find admirable men of the day who had grown through such a system it doesn't conclude much. In our recent past most of the men supported slavery. Many of them were good men. their offspring were offered a better view point on the issue of slavery; and in most cases, rejected it on principle and conscience. The point being that even though it may have been fairly pervasive under some very adverse conditions, that does not recommend the practice in any way.

To: Neocon who wrote (72102)	8/8/2003 4:43:51 PM
From: The Philosopher	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

That's a very interesting article. But weren't there some discussions of Greek homosexuality beyond Plato? OTOH, would we really want Andrew Sullivan taken as the authority on sexual habits of the early 21st century? Maybe the guy has a point.

To: Neocon who wrote (72102)	8/8/2003 9:22:23 PM
From: TimF	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 82486

Your PBS link continues on another page pbs.org Female homosexuality, or lesbianism, derives its name from the island of Lesbos in the eastern Aegean. Here the female poet, Sappho, composed passionate love poems addressed to young women in the 7th century BC. Unfortunately only one of her completed odes survives, and in another of these she mentions her daughter, so 'lesbianism' did not exclude marriage and childbirth. Indeed, she is supposed to have committed suicide by jumping off a cliff after falling in love with a boatman called Pharon. As the examples above indicate, the Ancient Greeks do not seem to have defined themselves as exclusively homosexual or heterosexual, which raises some difficulties when trying to compare their activities with modern notions of sexuality. Plato's Symposium is perhaps the most famous text on this subject. In it the playwright Aristophanes speculates that there were once three sexes - male, female and hermaphrodite, each of which had four legs, arms and other organs. Zeus punished these original humans for fighting against him and sliced them in half, which is the reason there are three kinds of persons - heterosexuals, and female and male homosexuals - each of us is always looking for our 'other half'. Humor aside, the Symposium also contains a lengthy discussion of the nature of physical desire and spiritual love, which has become known as 'Platonic love'. Plato's suggestion is that this form of love is far superior because it is not tied to the body's drives.