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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (110976)	8/11/2003 2:50:26 PM
From: Chas.	Respond to of 281500

I think you are exactly correct in what you say, lets not forget that the British and the French were greatly aided by one T.E.Lawrence and Prince Faisal. An interesting read is "Travels with Lawrence" by Lowell Thomas, interesting because it is from the perspective of 1916 or so, pre "Balfour Agreement" it aptly describes the Arab World just as you have described it. also I have read all of Thomas Freidmans work and I think he has it nailed. regards

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (110976)	8/11/2003 4:34:02 PM
From: Jacob Snyder	Read Replies (5) \| Respond to of 281500

Why, every time I bring up something evil the Israelis are doing, do you counter by talking about the Arabs? What the Israelis are doing, I measure against the standard of civilisation set by the U.S. Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the Geneva Conventions. That's the standard I expect from my own country, and from any country my nation is going to support (with blood and/or money). And I find both Israel and the USA fall far, far short of those ideals. My standard is not the (extremely low) standard set by Arab nations. People "of my ilk" have not forgotten that loyalties are mainly tribally (and religion)-based, in the Middle East. It is precisely because loyalties are based on religion and tribe, that these experiments in nation-building, in Iraq and Afghanistan, are going to be failures. Those loyalties will produce political parties based on religion and tribe, and no liberal democracy can survive that. What Bush the Lesser said about nation-building when he was running for President is true. The cloak of humanitarianism fits poorly on NeoCons. It's a thin, threadbare garment, easy to see through. NeoCons are doing all the same "lesser evil" bargains with the devil, that the Cold Warriors did. Supporting every despot, Emir, King, tyrant, warlord, who will call himself pro-American. And looking the other way, at their torture, autocracy, their suppression of every freedom of expression.