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Politics : Israel to U.S. : Now Deal with Syria and Iran -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Emile Vidrine who wrote (1452)	8/13/2003 12:45:21 PM
From: rrufff	Respond to of 22250

If you have really read my posts, you will see that I hate broad strokes to classify people. I object to your taking isolated incidents and labelling an entire class of people. If you, in fact, are a student of modern Jewish culture, you would know that Jewish thinking is all over the lot, but united on Israel's survival. Most Jews, within and without the land of Israel, would trade land for secure borders and peace. Most Palestinians don't want to go back to Israel. They also want peace. It's the demagogues and haters that keep the debate alive here. It's the tyrants who take money from their own people who keep the Palestinians financially enslaved. Wouldn't it be nice to have a real dialogue on implementing the road map? Your posting of historical documents to broadly paint an entire people is not inteneded to bring ethics or humanity to the situation. Your attempt to claim that most Jews believe every word of the Talmud is absurd. It would be like me claiming that Catholics believe in pedophilia, just because so many thousands of Priests have acted in a way and "commented" in ways that have supported the practice. Quite frankly - wouldn't you think that would be absurd? It's no more absurd that your using "ancient commentaries" similar to those found in any religious texts of the era as being the thinking of modern Jews.

To: Emile Vidrine who wrote (1452)	8/19/2003 6:17:49 AM
From: GUSTAVE JAEGER	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 22250

None of this changes the facts that (a) Jews, either individually or through their 'leaders' or collectively or in some combination of these, play a huge role in the making of policies that consistently and blindly favor Israel, (b) anyone anywhere in government who opposes these trends seems to get dumped or ignored. To explain this it is helpful to conceive of Jewish power in America somewhat like eunuch power in the Ottoman Empire. In the Ottoman Empire, eunuchs were of course slaves or servants, yet at times their influence was pervasive. Sometimes they became key government advisers, sometimes even generals and admirals. At times it would not have been at all implausible to suggest that eunuchs were 'running things'. But in the end, no one could take such a claim too seriously. The Ottoman Empire never looked like some great machine turning out treats for eunuchs. The eunuchs simply took a certain limited advantage of the power vacuums appeared in a decaying, increasingly ignorant and feckless ruling circle. If anyone trembled before these neutered potentates, it was only at the good pleasure of the society that bought or castrated them in the first place. No, the Jews aren't quite the eunuchs of the American Empire. But Jewish power does exist at the good pleasure of non-Jewish Americans, both in government and throughout the general population. This holds even where Jews exercise the most effective control, in Hollywood. That's why you don't see Arnold Schwarzenegger playing the widowed, retired Israeli paratrooper, raining fire and death on the leering Palestinian thugs who killed his children and gang-raped Selma Hayek, their beloved Israeli Arab nanny. Max Weber said that "'power' [is] the chance of a man, or of a number of men to realize their own will in communal action even against the resistance of others who are participating in the action." Whatever sway Jewish Hollywood moguls hold over their actors, elsewhere they have much influence, but little power. Jewish lobby groups constitute, not a separate power structure, but the department of Jewish affairs within the American power structure. Their will is realized, and the will of Jews is realized throughout the US government, but it is not "against the resistance of others". What resistance? By and large, American gentiles have either been pushing in the same direction, or watching from the sidelines. It is not, after all, as if America aches with compassion for the Palestinians, but has been crushed by the mighty Jews. If the Jewish lobby has defeated a few maverick black congressional candidates, it is not because mountains of American dollars have been dwarfed by even bigger mountains of Jewish shekels. And if non-Jewish leftists have failed to condemn the diffidence of their Jewish counterparts, it is not because the Big Jewish Money police are prowling around in black leather trench-coats. The real culprits in the story of Jewish influence in America are the people who let it all happen. These are the non-Jewish Americans who, in their opposition to Israel, are so timid that a couple of words from Alan Dershowitz would send them all scuttling like cockroaches back to their dark corners. The few who go further are not 'silenced' by Jewish power. One hears from them all the time: ask a Chinese or Iraqi or former Chilean dissident what 'silenced' means. They are ineffective because they haven't even tried to organize themselves, shrinking from the unpleasantness of offending the 'courageous' Jewish left. One thinks of the immortal words of George Carlin: "Take a fucking risk, for Christ's sake!" That Americans have let the Jews have their way doesn't mean that reporting on Jewish activities in America should stop. But what is needed is not yet another list of the Jewish court jesters hired by the American establishment, or the groups that lobby for policies the US government anyway wants to promote. Nor do we need more dark hints based on collections of scattered facts rather than serious comparative data. Far more revealing and just as damning would be the story of how ordinary Jews either applaud the worst Israeli crimes, or deplore them and support Israel anyway, or denounce them with rhetoric that somehow never gets around to advocating anything that would stop them. It is a story that just lies there, ready and waiting to be told. Jewish tribalism is real and strong, but it does not enslave Americans. For all its prestige, it is not something 'special' or specially powerful. It is just another instance of the ordinary, vulgar racism and nationalism found all over the world. It is immoral, but not as contemptible as the whining of those who supposedly want to do something about Israel, yet are astounded to encounter Jewish opposition and slink off, muttering about 'being in the grip of Jewish power'. These people should themselves get a grip, and do something about it. [...] Excerpted from: counterpunch.org Then again, I told you so: Message 18732378 Message 18731305