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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (111339)	8/13/2003 11:20:02 PM
From: marcos	Respond to of 281500

The land has been there for many tens of thousands of years, it's absurd to claim it matters what it was called in various periods 'And if you wanna play the "who got here first" came, the Jews can beat everybody' Horse manure .... oh, and now i recall what Palestine was called by the jews at the time they claim to have arrived from wherever - 'the land of Canaan' .... lol ...... by their own myths, they claim to have murdered before to conquer this place .... and that gives them rights to murder now to conquer it again, from other religious whackos who have been there whacking at the same bloody religion for what, around a millenium and a third ... yeah, right 'what army?' - huh? ... oh yeah right, they call it a 'defense force' .... alright sure, pffft ... but even if all six millions of this Whackenstaat claim to have fallen from the sky, it's still an invasion, and it happens to be an invasion to the lands of another Whackenstaat, which is, um, what makes for problems ... alright, really gonna make calls now, or i'll have no truck tomorrow ..... michael, i drive the biggest dieselest pickup Ford made in the eighties ... or rather, i would drive it, if the damn thing would run

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (111339)	8/14/2003 12:18:12 AM
From: Jacob Snyder	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

<...if you wanna play the "who got here first" came, the Jews can beat everybody at that one...> It is so easy to poke holes in your self-serving Mythology. And all the evidence I need, abundant evidence, comes from the Jew's own holy texts. The Promised Land wasn't empty when Moses looked across the Jordan at it, any more than it was when the Zionists did it again 3000 or so years later. The Old Testament tells the story of ethnic cleansing, one town after another, where the Chosen People slaughtered every living thing. Men, women, children, livestock, all put to the sword. Even the Serbs in Bosnia weren't that thorough. And after they massacred the previous inhabitants, it still took several generations, to violently stamp out the Other Earliest Ideas. Over and over, the Prophets had to bring down God's Wrath, to get the Jews to quit worshipping the Asherah, and the other Gods and Goddesses who had been worshipped for millenia before the Jews got there. It's all there, in the Bible and the archeological record. Deny it, and I'll quote chapter and verse, as much as you want of that ancient bloody story. Which is echoed in the modern bloody story.

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (111339)	8/14/2003 10:42:41 AM
From: Bilow	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

Hi Nadine Carroll; Re: "A hundred years ago, Palestine didn't exist at all. The region was part of three different Ottoman vilayets." Israel didn't exist at all 100 years ago either. As far as comparing the West Bank to Texas, the last I saw the citizens of Texas, on average, were quite proud to be American. You can't say the same about the average denizen of the West Bank. But there is an even more fundamental difference between the Occupied Territories and Tibet or Texas. That is that the US and China are great powers, and it is traditional on this planet for the great powers to control shitty little countries, especially shitty little countries on their borders. You can find thousands of examples of this, but it won't make Israel a great power. One obvious example is Palestine itself. It was on the border of a great power, Turkey, which controlled it for centuries. Now if it is morally right for Israel to control the Occupied Territories (and carve off chunks for ethnic cleansing and colonization) then certainly it was morally right for Turkey to run the place too. No, the moral argument is a lose because it ignores the practical realities. The practical reality is that Tibet is quite safe in the clutches of China. Texas and California, too, are safe in the hold of the United States. But the various occupied territories are not safe under the control of Israel. What's worse, by continuing to expand into them Israel is ruining its chances for retaining Jewish power in Israel proper. This is something that moderates in Israel have known for years. As Israel expands, it inevitably dilutes its Jewish percentage. 'Founding father' Abba Eban spoke eloquently on Israel's behalf Chicago Jewish Community Online ... His most famous line came after the PLO rejected a plan for Palestinian control over most of the West Bank and Gaza Strip that was part of the Camp David Accords that Israel and Egypt signed in 1978. The Palestinians, he said, "never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity." ... After 1967, he quickly came out in favor of a Palestinian state, opposing Israeli rule in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. He once said that Israel was "tearing up its own birth certificate. Israel's birth is intrinsically and intimately linked with the idea of sharing territory and sovereignty." ... juf.org -- Carl