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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: greenspirit who wrote (112587)	8/24/2003 9:44:22 AM
From: GST	Respond to of 281500

Ethnic Fighting Spreads in Northern Iraq story.news.yahoo.com

To: greenspirit who wrote (112587)	8/24/2003 9:48:05 AM
From: GST	Respond to of 281500

<When is Enough Enough? In a new Newsweek poll, Americans say they’re spending too much in Iraq with too little to show for it. And with the 2004 approaching, Bush is losing ground> By Jennifer Barrett NEWSWEEK WEB EXCLUSIVE Aug. 23 — Americans are increasingly pessimistic about the U.S. mission in Iraq, saying the United States should reduce its spending and scale back its efforts there, according to the latest NEWSWEEK poll. msnbc.com

To: greenspirit who wrote (112587)	8/24/2003 7:21:31 PM
From: Jacob Snyder	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

<Underlying practically everything you write is a deep seated belief that all the problems of the world were a)caused by America or b) about to be caused by America.> The U.S. exercises more power, in more places, and in more ways (military, cultural, economic), than any other nation in history ever has. There are 200 "independant" nations on the planet, but for almost all of them, their sovereignty is heavily restricted, directly (by U.S. army, State Dept., our funding or threats not to fund various programs) or indirectly by U.S.-dominated organizations with global reach (IMF, World Bank, multinational corporations). The U.S. dollar is becoming the global currency, our Federal Reserve exercised power globally, English is becoming the global language, our Universities are where much of the elite of every other nation is trained. This concentration of power in one nation, is unprecedented. We are witnessing a unique historical event, something that has never existed before. It is an exaggeration, but not much of one, to say that the U.S. government is the de facto world government, and the U.S. military is the world police. So, yes, the U.S. is responsible for much of the evil, along with much of the good, that happens anywhere on earth.

To: greenspirit who wrote (112587)	8/24/2003 7:35:58 PM
From: Jacob Snyder	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Michael, you paint with too broad a brush: <...our actions in Iraq and Afghanistan were supported by a majority of Americans and the U.S. congress> There were crucial differences, between the support for Iraq and Afghanistan. And also, for the support for Regime Change, as opposed to Nation Building. There was overwhelming support for Regime Change in Afghanistan. For Regime Change in Iraq, polls before the war showed a bare majority (50-55%), but that majority support was conditional on factors that didn't happen, or beliefs created by fear-mongering Administration lies. During the war, there was a brief spike into the 70-80% range, a "rally round the flag" ephemeral event, that is now gone. <In every poll taken, the Iraqi people are overwhelmingly in favor or our presence.> Again, that's a crude simplification. Just as with American public opinion, the polls I've seen (only two I can recall), have shown an ambivalent, complex and divided opinion among Iraqis, to our conquest. On the one hand, they are happy to have Saddam gone, and don't want him back. They also strongly support establishing a liberal democracy. On the other hand, there is also strong support for some form of Islamic government. You and I may think those two opinions are a contradiction, but the Iraqis evidently don't. And the Iraqi public are deeply disappointed in the results of our rule, so far (the chaos and lack of basic services). And they, as are all Arab populations, are deeply distrustful of our motives, with large majorities saying we did it for Israel, or to steal their oil. So, from the small amount of evidence I've seen of Iraqi public opinion, "overwhelming support of American presense" is not accurate. If you have other evidence, please post it, I'd like to see any facts on this issue, whether it supports my opinions or not.

To: greenspirit who wrote (112587)	8/24/2003 8:44:21 PM
From: Sam	Respond to of 281500

Talk about a "red herring" Vietnam, Veitnam, Veitnam. It's like a drum beat which hits this thread every 50 or so posts. He wouldn't have to restrict himself to Vietnam, that is only a highly visible example. There are numerous countries like Nicaragua, Honduras, Panama (which we of course carved out of Columbia in order to build the canal), Brazil, Argentina, El Salvador, Haiti, Chile, Cuba--frankly, the list goes on and on. In each of the above countries, the US has either sponsored a revolution, propped up a dictator, supported mass killings by governments, etc. I've restricted myself to South and Central America, but other places and countries could be added. Five years from now when the Iraqi people celebrate their liberation with parades in downtown Baghdad, I wonder if the critics will acknowledge they were wrong? If there is still a civil war going on in Iraq in five years, I wonder if the supporters of this war will acknowledge that they were wrong? Or will they, as I suspect, blame those who criticize it for the failure?