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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: The Philosopher who wrote (73294)8/25/2003 11:39:17 PM
From: The Philosopher  Respond to of 82486
 
This poem from Donne, especially the second stanza, puts forward my position well. If no merchant's ships are drowned, if no ground is overflowed, then who's injured by my love -- or by my insult.

The Canonization, by John Donne

For God's sake hold your tongue, and let me love,
Or chide my palsy, or my gout,
My five grey hairs, or ruined fortune flout,
With wealth your state, your mind with arts improve,
Take you a course, get you a place,
Observe his honour, or his grace,
Or the King's real, or his stamped face
Contemplate, what you will, approve,
So you will let me love.

Alas, alas, who's injured by my love?
What merchant's ships have my sighs drowned?
Who says my tears have overflowed his ground?
When did my colds a forward spring remove?
When did the heats which my veins fill
Add one more to the plaguy bill?
Soldiers find wars, and lawyers find out still
Litigious men, which quarrels move,
Though she and I do love.

Call us what you will, we are made such by love;
Call her one, me another fly,
We'are tapers too, and at our own cost die,
And we in us find th' eagle and the dove.
The phoenix riddle hath more wit
By us; we two being one, are it.
So, to one neutral thing both sexes fit,
We die and rise the same, and prove
Mysterious by this love.

We can die by it, if not live by love,
And if unfit for tombs and hearse
Our legend be, it will be fit for verse;
And if no piece of chronicle we prove,
We'll build in sonnets pretty rooms;
As well a well-wrought urn becomes
The greatest ashes, as half-acre tombs,
And by these hymns all shall approve
Us canonized for love;

And thus invoke us: "You, whom reverend love
Made one another's hermitage;
You, to whom love was peace, that now is rage;
Who did the whole world's soul contract, and drove
Into the glasses of your eyes
So made such mirrors, and such spies,
That they did all to you epitomize
Countries, towns, courts: beg from above
A pattern of your love!"



To: The Philosopher who wrote (73294)8/26/2003 11:18:41 AM
From: TimF  Respond to of 82486
 
"You actually did that? That's incredible."

I'm not sure that this particular phrase is an insult even if the other person understands that it isn't positive.

And in this situation since neither B's emotional state nor his reputation was hurt I would be even less likely to call it an insult.

Tim



To: The Philosopher who wrote (73294)8/26/2003 12:55:42 PM
From: one_less  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 82486
 
"So there is never any impact on society, never any effect on Miss Manners. B goes to his grave thinking that I really approved of what he had done and that I thought it was neat and cool.

Have I insulted B? "


You were insulting B. However, B was not insulted (harmed). Naivete has it's rewards. Miss Manners was effected to the extent that you are a member of society and have a conscience.

The greater insult is to your soul, as always.