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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (113417)	8/29/2003 11:01:36 PM
From: Sig	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

<<Is the end of the world near? Launch the nukes? Really. I can just imagine what these guys would have sounded like in 1942. >>> !942? About that time we were losing 30 merchant ships per week to the German subs with few survivors, and this was reported as two ships per week by a more patriotic Press to prevent a collapse of morale in all areas The losses there alone in one week would be from 3 to 5 times all of our casualties in the last three wars, in which actions we have ended the regimes of three would- be Hitlers or equivalents 10k to 20 K US casualties were a reasonable expectation for the Iraq actions General Franks did it for less then 200. If thats losing , I'll join the losing side. . Sig .

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (113417)	8/30/2003 12:59:16 AM
From: Bilow	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Hi Nadine Carroll; Re: "Really. I can just imagine what these guys would have sounded like in 1942." It's not that the other side is arguing that we should "surrender" to the terrorists, but instead that the war should be fought differently. It's your side that is running around *afraid that losing the war in Iraq* will destroy Western Civilization. So what would your attitude back in 1942 have been? *Would you have called Roosevelt a coward for failing to defend the Philippines? Would you have insisted that Britain hang on to Dunkirk?* Would you have been insisting that Russia hang onto its share of Poland? That the Brits keep the Japanese out of Singapore? The problem with Iraq is that it is an unwinnable campaign in a war that we will inevitably win. As such, it is a setback in the war on terror. But it is not the whole war. What Bush did was an error of the first magnitude, but all is not lost. We will win in the end in the same way that we made progress in Iran, by simply leaving these primitive countries alone and slowly converting their citizens one by one, with the power of our corporations. The business of America is business, and that is the true strength of America. Our strength is not military, in that area we are no more able to control civilian opinions in Iraq than Israel is able to control civilian attitudes in Palestine. We just can't win a battle for hearts and minds on the battlefield, because unlike WW2, there is no opposing government organized against us for us to fight on a battlefield. In that sense, the situation is worse than Vietnam, where at least we could blame the government of North Vietnam for our problems in South Vietnam. What do you think is going to happen after we pull our troops out of Iraq? Do you think that convenience store owners in the Detroit area are going to start strapping on suicide belts? Of course not. The war on terror will continue with or without Iraq. Now the effect of our pulling out on Israel may be a bit harsher, but that's their problem. They spent 50 years making their bed, let them lie in it. Alone. So do please tell me exactly what you expect to happen if we were to pull out of Iraq. I already know that Iraq will "descend into chaos" (as if it isn't headed there whether we pull out or not). What I want to hear from you is what the knock-on effects of the pullout will be on the United States. I want to hear your defeatist rhetoric about what will happen when we pull out. So come on, spin me your worst case scenario. Tell me that the sky is falling, that the wolf is gonna get us. Convince us that we have to hang on in Iraq because Western Civilization depends on it! -- Carl