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To: Raymond Duray who wrote (37558)	8/30/2003 3:53:23 AM
From: maceng2	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

Is your delusional state pharmacologically induced Well thank you pointing out that twig in my eye, I shall have to remove it.. But it's a beautiful sunny morning here and I just feel fine thank you, my drug is just a cup of tea. I was lightly passing over your argument looking for the clincher in it. Here it is.. In answer to my statement that a free market should be promoted.. Why this bit of idiocy ever got outside the ivy-covered walls of the University of Chicago will be one the things the sociologist of the 23rd Century will marvel about What? Are you saying there should be no free market? That we need a stalinist central control to order everything to be made?? Down to the quota and type of clothes each wears?? In Russia, during communism, they had exactly that problem. That and the fact that very few people wanted to work. It was an outright disaster. A free market (even if it's just local) is a MUST HAVE Now if you understand that, the rest of your arguments wash down the drain... where they belong -ggg-

To: Raymond Duray who wrote (37558)	8/30/2003 11:33:05 AM
From: Haim R. Branisteanu	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

Definition of "truly free markets" sounds to me like the definition of "utopian communism" both theories are supposed to improve the standard of living and bring equal prosperity to all people. The problem with both theories is that it relates to human beings as only positive creatures. The factor that distorts both theories are elements in human nature such as; laziness, foolishness, greed, pride, selfishness, desire of control, yearning of power, denial, opportunistic approaches, disregard of other people needs or being plain mean, and exploitation of others. Would not go on with all the negative aspects of humanity as my point is that humans can not rule themselves and civilization needed to be put in place with several sets of laws and law enforcement entities which are far from perfect that we need to pay for, ........ therefore we have taxes and many other burdens. Going back to this theory I would bring an recent example, of the guy that released the version "b" of the worm to the Internet. What did he achieved from that ? ..... nothing Why he did that ? ...... out of foolishness and satisfy his personal pride with complete disregard of other people needs. On the other hand, would he been not an foolish person, setting his pride feelings aside, and be a considered person caring for others well-being, he would have realized the damage he may inflict on others for no gain and would not release the worm to the Internet) Net result - he ruined his and his family life, inflicted substantial damage on other people (for no gain). So that is an example of the negativity inherent in human nature His actions enforced the legitimacy of more enforcement which we all must pay for, new laws and bigger government to rule our lives....... IMHO close to 1/2 of humans make a living only to police the rest of us or assisting us to comply with the rules that we humans put in place....... and that is a huge waste of human resources. In summary both concepts "truly free markets" or "utopian communism" are wonderful, but humans are not up to it........... so may be free trade and communism would succeed on another planet of another star. During the stone age when few groups of humans were able to interact live evolved without the things mentioned above and "free trade and communism" flourished ..... They just did not have the names for it. As a matter of fact humans were able to spend hundred of thousand of years under this system and flourish and prosper to the level that they needed to institute the rules and laws of civilization. As civilization has arisen humanity are still tinkering with the rules and laws because the system is so far from working properly.......... therefore better to go back to the early stone age <GGG> there is were human can live in harmony