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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Jacob Snyder who wrote (113894)	9/4/2003 2:32:01 PM
From: frankw1900	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

This is defective: The War Party sees the cause-and-effect as linear: A causes B, which causes C: They hate us, so they attack us, so we attack them. No blame attaches to us, because all our violence is reactive and defensive. And this is defective: The Peace Party sees the cause-and-effect as circular: A causes B, B causes A, repeat endlessly: We attack them, they attack us back, we attack them again, they attack us again. The blame cannot be heaped on any one side; it's a cycle of violence, perpetuated by both sides exclusively blaming the Other, and both sides habitually seeking violent solutions to problems. Both propositions are untrue. And so is this: The War Party rejects self-examination as defeatism, while the Peace Party thinks self-examination is necessary for the war to be won. All three propositions are defective either as statements of fact or as description. As partisan generalizations for the purpose of generating ill feeling they are superb.

To: Jacob Snyder who wrote (113894)	9/7/2003 3:16:47 PM
From: Hawkmoon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

They hate us, so they attack us, so we attack them. No blame attaches to us, because all our violence is reactive and defensive. Jacob.. It's about power. You don't have that many people forming such hatred filled ideas without some form of leadership manipulating and creating those emotions. And that's where the Wahhabist sect becomes the heart of the problem. They are intolerant to even moderate Muslims. Intolerant in ways that no Christian fundamentalist has yet risen (at least since the Spanish Inquisition). We really don't fight wars against men. We fight against ideals and ideology, as implemented by the individuals which follow and adher to them. Hitler was able to use such ideals as racism, white supremecy (Aryanism), and nationalist pride to convince the German people that they deserved to rule over every nation in Europe.. And the German people, not necessarily being evil on an individual level, attempted to carry out that vision, wreaking havoc throughout the European continent and killing millions. And the Wahhabists are similar in their beliefs. That only they are right, and that they will coerce others to adher to the dogma expounded by a select few religious elite. There is no choice by the general population because the religous elite interpret their religious works as suits their immediate purpose, in order to control and dictate the socio-political, and economic, system by which a nation's population will be ruled. And of course, we believe we're right to promote and defend democratic ideas, because they create a system where political concepts are submitted to the marketplace of ideals. Heretofore, the US has faced battles of politcal conflict. Battles between ideologies such as Democratic Republicanism and Nazism, Marxism, and Monarchism. But now we're facing a battle with a politico-religious theology. A theology that is waging a "crusade" (which they call Jihad), and which cannot tolerate moderate alternative political systems. You believe we shouldn't "shake the beehive" in hopes that we can prevent arousing a "swarm" of Islamic militantcy. But I'm telling you the "swarm" has been preparing all by itself to assert itself.. It's been preparing for the past 80 years since the founding of the Ihkwan (Moslem Brotherhood), but only recently has seen the conditions which make it favorable for them to burst forth.. And these conditions are politico-economic deterioration, and demographic expansion. You all hear me say it over and over again, denying it's relevance, but I'm telling you that you can't have 50% of a given population under the age of 18, with 30% unemployment, and not have a situation ripe for political "miracle workers" to arise and promise to restore national/cultural dignity against whatever oppressors they can imagine. These people are looking for someone to blame. And it's easier to blame the US and western industrialized world than it is to accept that somehow their current system is defective and not based upon human realities. So when you see people saying they "hate the west", look real hard and see what they are drinking, eating, reading, watching, and most importantly, wearing. Because while they may claim they hate us, it may actually be a nasty form of envy.. An envy derived from their inability to replicate the freedoms and opportunities enjoyed in the west via their corrupt, antiquated, and intolerant systems. As a prime example, I love to hear Saudi apologiests complain about how their people are mis-treated in the US. Harassed, finger-printed, and questioned merely for being Saudi.. I hear them gripe and complain and reflect upon how I, as an American, would be treated were I in their country. I would have to have a sponsor, surrender my passport, have permission to travel from one city to another, and I believe, pay an exit tax. No one likes to admit that they are envious. So hatred is often a convenient surrogate emotion.. And it's also convenient to hate the US when they are denied the same rights to live here as actual US citizens do. I won't worry about people "hating us" until I see more Americans emigrating from the US, than we see foreigners literally dying to come here. America represents the melting pot of the world. We have people from every nation on earth moving here to escape the repression and lack of economic opportunity found in their homelands. Our ideals, laws, and very culture are shaped by these diverse elements from around the world (look at our varieties of cuisine). So what these people REALLY HATE, IMO, is the alienation they feel from being unable to change and assimilate to the values that people from around the world seek to adopt for themselves by moving to the US and Europe. And merely ignoring them IS NOT going to make them "go away". Hawk