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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: one_less who wrote (73911)	9/4/2003 7:04:16 PM
From: The Philosopher	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

Up to a certain age, 16 in many (most?) states, there is no ability of a woman to consent, so it's statutory rape. Obviously that law is based on ancient feelings of patrimony which feminists, if they are to be consistent, should deplore, but as a parent I feel somewhat comforted by it. I also agree that parents hold the key for this, as for many other, areas. Parents have to raise their children to understand right and wrong, to understand their right to control their bodies, to be trained to make decisions (that's why good parenting invovles giving children legitimate choices at the earliest possible age), and all the other things that go into good parenting. It's not the complete answer, but it goes a long way.

To: one_less who wrote (73911)	9/4/2003 11:53:01 PM
From: E	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 82486

I agree with a lot of what you said. But some of it suggests some questions to me. You wrote, I hold the males responsible for their physical power and force in these circumstances, females responsible for provokee behavior in that regard, and I hold their lazy butt parents responsible for any neglect in supervision. Date rapes would not be occurring in these circumstances if everyone was owning up to their responsibility, or if we began to sanction everyone who should be held responsible in such situations. How would you define "provokee behavior," and precisely how would you hold females responsible if males felt that their behavior had "provoked" them into forcing vaginal or other penetration on them? What if the female was willing to have vaginal intercourse but anal or oral was forced upon her? Would she be held responsible for having "provoked" that male into satisfying his desires by force? If not, why not? I understand what the penalty would be for a male who used force or violence in perpetrating a sexual act on an unwilling although sexually provocative female. It would be something along the lines of jail. Aside from some stern advice from her parents (if she was a teenager), what would you suggest be the penalty for the female whom the male asserted had provoked him into forcing intercourse of some sort on her? Jail? And what of the same situation in which the male rapist and female provocatee are adults? Precisely how would "holding her responsible" work? Jail for her? Community service? A wrist slap for him? What if she would have been willing but discovered the male hadn't brought condoms, and, since she was a provocatee, he forced her anyway? I ask all these specific questions hoping for specific answers. The point of them of course is to show that any rule other than that no means no creates many problems (however difficult it is in some date-rape circumstances to know what actually happened, and despite the fact that unfair allegations will occasionally be made). And besides creating the kinds of problems the questions raise, it may give males a kind of social permission to force penetration on women who agreed to engage in some sexual activity, but not that one.