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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Lazarus_Long who wrote (74096)	9/9/2003 8:42:19 PM
From: TimF	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

Establishing what happened and how clear it was often requires the wisdom of Solomon and the intelligence of Einstein. I'm sure juries often get it wrong, usually in favor of the man because of the "beyond a reasonable doubt" rule. And it is possible that a woman meant "No", but conveyed it in such a murky manner that the man did not understand it. It is also incumbent on them to be clear. A lot of date rape or alleged date rape situations are all about murkiness and uncertainty, not the fact that a jury or the cops can't easily know exactly what happened in a certain situation but the fact that what really happened is something that the principles would not agree about even if they are both being 100% honest. If the woman says yes to one level of sexual involvement but says no, when the many escalates, and then he backs down but tries again and then she doesn't say no and seems to be enjoying it, and then the same thing happens twice more and they wind up having sex is it rape? After all she said no three times. Or what if the woman sees something in the guys face that scares her and she goes along with sex with no resistance, not even saying "no", or "please stop", and the guy just thinks she wants sex and did not threaten her or physically force her? Is it rape? Is it sometimes rape and sometimes not rape depending on additional details? What if two people decide they will fool around but not have sex and state this to each other, then they both get drunk and wind up having sex. Is it rape? If so who raped who? I agree that "no means no" but the "no has to be clearly stated. I don't think someone should face a long prison term if his (or potential her) partner doesn't resist or clearly say no. (except such obvious exceptions such as when the compliance is in response to a clear threat or if the partner or really victim is a child) Tim