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Politics : Stockman Scott's Political Debate Porch -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Wowzer who wrote (27154)9/8/2003 5:24:24 PM
From: Raymond Duray  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 89467
 
Excellent post. Well stated. :) <EOM>



To: Wowzer who wrote (27154)9/8/2003 6:04:04 PM
From: Rock_nj  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 89467
 
As if the $150 Billion that we're spending on Iraq couldn't be spent in a lot better ways right here at home in the U.S. of A. I've lived in the NYC area all of my life and the 2nd Ave subway has never been built due to a lack of funding. A measly $10 B would get the job done, a pittance compared to the money we're pouring down that rathole in Iraq. There's a flood control project in central New Jersey that has been stalled for 3 decades because of a lack of funding. There was a major flood five years ago that did $100Ms in property damage and killed a few people. Our priorities are all screwed up and have been for years. They need to spend that money right here at home to benefit all Americans.



To: Wowzer who wrote (27154)9/8/2003 6:34:12 PM
From: Crimson Ghost  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 89467
 
.

There's Good Reason to Fear US  

by Noam Chomsky 

09/07/03: (Toronto Star ) Amid the aftershocks of recent suicide bombings in Baghdad and Najaf, and countless other horrors since Sept. 11, 2001, it is easy to understand why many believe that the world has entered a new and frightening "age of terror," the title of a recent collection of essays by Yale University scholars and others. 

However, two years after 9/11, the United States has yet to confront the roots of terrorism, has waged more war than peace and has continually raised the stakes of international confrontation. 

On 9/11, the world reacted with shock and horror, and sympathy for the victims. But it is important to bear in mind that for much of the world, there was a further reaction: "Welcome to the club." 

For the first time in history, a Western power was subjected to an atrocity of the kind that is all too familiar elsewhere. 

Any attempt to make sense of events since then will naturally begin with an investigation of American power — how it has reacted and what course it may take. 

Within a month of 9/11, Afghanistan was under attack. Those who accept elementary moral standards have some work to do to show that the United States and Britain were justified in bombing Afghans to compel them to turn over people suspected of criminal atrocities, the official reason given when the bombings began. 

Then, in September, 2002, the most powerful state in history announced a new National Security Strategy, asserting that it will maintain global hegemony permanently. 

Any challenge will be blocked by force, the dimension in which the United States reigns supreme. 

At the same time, the war drums began to beat to mobilize the population for an invasion of Iraq. 

And the campaign opened for the mid-term congressional elections, which would determine whether the administration would be able to carry out its radical international and domestic agenda. 

The final days of 2002, foreign policy specialist Michael Krepon wrote, were "the most dangerous since the 1962 Cuban missile crisis," which historian Arthur Schlesinger described, reasonably, as "the most dangerous moment in human history." 

Krepon's concern was nuclear proliferation in an "unstable nuclear-proliferation belt stretching from Pyongyang to Baghdad," including "Iran, Iraq, North Korea and the Indian subcontinent." 

Bush administration initiatives in 2002 and 2003 have only increased the threats in and near this unstable belt. 

The National Security Strategy declared that the United States, alone, has the right to carry out "preventive war" — preventive, not pre-emptive — using military force to eliminate a perceived threat, even if invented or imagined. 

Preventive war is, very simply, the "supreme crime" condemned at the Nuremberg trials of Nazi war criminals. 

From early September, 2002, the Bush administration issued grim warnings about the danger that Saddam Hussein posed to the United States, with broad hints that Saddam was linked to Al Qaeda and involved in the Sept. 11 attacks. The propaganda assault helped enable the administration to gain some support from a frightened population for the planned invasion of a country known to be virtually defenseless— and a valuable prize, at the heart of the world's major energy system. 

Last May, after the putative end of the war in Iraq, President Bush landed on the deck of the USS Abraham Lincoln and declared that he had won a "victory in the war on terror (by having) removed an ally of Al Qaeda." 

But Sept. 11, 2003, will arrive with no credible evidence for the alleged link between Saddam and his bitter enemy Osama bin Laden. And the only known link between the victory and terror is that the invasion of Iraq seems to have increased Al Qaeda recruitment and the threat of terror. 

The Wall Street Journal recognized that Bush's carefully staged aircraft-carrier extravaganza "marks the beginning of his 2004 re-election campaign," which the White House hopes "will be built as much as possible around national security themes." 

If the administration lets domestic issues prevail, it is in deep trouble. 

Meanwhile, bin Laden remains at large. And the source of the post-Sept. 11 anthrax terror is unknown — an even more striking failure, given that the source is assumed to be domestic, perhaps even from a federal weapons lab. 

The Iraqi weapons of mass destruction are still missing, too. 

For the second 9/11 anniversary and beyond, we basically have two choices. We can march forward with confidence that the global enforcer will drive evil from the world, much as the president's speech writers declare, plagiarizing ancient epics and children's tales. 

Or we can subject the doctrines of the proclaimed grand new era to scrutiny, drawing rational conclusions, perhaps gaining some sense of the emerging reality. 

The wars that are contemplated in the war on terror are to go on for a long time. 

"There's no telling how many wars it will take to secure freedom in the homeland," the president announced last year. 

That's fair enough. Potential threats are limitless. And there is strong reason to believe that they are becoming more severe as a result of Bush administration lawlessness and violence. 

We also should be able to appreciate recent comments on the matter by Ami Ayalon, the 1996-2000 head of Shabak, Israel's General Security Service, who observed that "those who want victory" against terror without addressing underlying grievances "want an unending war." 

The observation generalizes in obvious ways. 

The world has good reason to watch what is happening in Washington with fear and trepidation. 

The people who are best placed to relieve those fears, and to lead the way to a more hopeful and constructive future, are the people of the United States, who can shape the future. 



To: Wowzer who wrote (27154)9/8/2003 7:36:45 PM
From: BubbaFred  Respond to of 89467
 
No sweat, it's mere pittance at 5% of GDP. Even at 10% of GDP, US economy can handle it without any sweat. Let's count the ways those GDP numbers can be finagled and make them so rosey. When it has to, there will be inflation, hyper type, that will cheapen all those deficit. The economy may even contract at the same time. The burden will come from the middle class, possibly reducing the percentage of middle class. Those folks with high medical and prescription bills will be eliminated by way of natural selection. Those with terminal cases why bother living a months longer and wasting so much of the medical insurance. Those with common cold and flue symptoms, why waste money for doctor's visit when only rest and time can cure. Let natural selection takes course and may American society regress back to the way it was back in the 1920's and 30's. Remember the roaring twenties?, that was followed by the great depression? Those two events made US stronger and wealthier when it began serious recovery in the 40's and 50's. It's time to revisit those good old days. That could be the path in the next 6 years and today's American majority has spoken and decided that's the path forward. March on! It's destiny! Americans are in love! In love with GW and his judeofascists agenda. lyricstime.com



To: Wowzer who wrote (27154)9/8/2003 7:36:54 PM
From: KonKilo  Respond to of 89467
 
Great rant, Rory...

Dead on, too.



To: Wowzer who wrote (27154)9/8/2003 11:20:51 PM
From: mishedlo  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 89467
 
Good Lord I got 96 recs for your post pasted on the FOOL.
That is a huge amt.
I gave you credit but accidentally called you Roy.

boards.fool.com



To: Wowzer who wrote (27154)9/8/2003 11:33:20 PM
From: stockman_scott  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 89467
 
The Importance of Losing the War
_______________________________________

By Jonathan Schell
The Nation
Friday 05 September 2003

The basic mistake of American policy in Iraq is not that the Pentagon – believing the fairy tales told it by Iraqi exile groups and overriding State Department advice – forgot, when planning "regime change," to bring along a spare government to replace the one it was smashing.

The mistake was not that, once embarked on running the place, the administration did not send enough troops to do the job. Not that a civilian contingent to aid the soldiers was lacking. Not that the Baghdad museum, the Jordanian Embassy, the United Nations and Imam Ali mosque, among other places, were left unguarded. Not that no adequate police force, whether American or Iraqi, was provided to keep order generally. Not that the United States, seeking to make good that lack, then began to recruit men from the most hated and brutal of Saddam's agencies, the Mukhabarat.

It is not that, in an unaccountable and unparalleled lapse in America's once sure-fire technical know-how, Iraq's electrical, water and fuel systems remain dysfunctional. Not that the administration has erected a powerless shadow government composed in large measure of the same clueless exiles that misled the administration in the first place.

Nor is it that the administration has decided to privatize substantial portions of the Iraqi economy before the will of the Iraqi people in this matter is known. Not that the occupation forces have launched search-and-destroy operations that estrange and embitter a population that increasingly despises the United States. Not that, throughout, a bullying diplomacy has driven away America's traditional allies.

All these blunders and omissions are indeed mistakes of American policy, and grievous ones, but they are secondary mistakes. The main mistake of American policy in Iraq was waging the war at all. That is not a conclusion that anyone should have to labor to arrive at.

Something like the whole world, including most of its governments and tens of millions of demonstrators, plus the UN Security Council, Representative Dennis Kucinich, Governor Howard Dean, made the point most vocally before the fact. They variously pointed out that the Iraqi regime gave no support to al-Qaeda, predicted that the United States would be unable to establish democracy in Iraq by force (and that therefore no such democracy could serve as a splendid model for the rest of the Middle East), warned that "regime change" for purposes of disarmament was likely to encourage other countries to build weapons of mass destruction, and argued that the allegations that Iraq already had weapons of mass destruction and was ready to use them at any moment (within forty-five minutes after the order was delivered, it was said) were unproven.

All these justifications for the war are now in history's ash heap, never to be retrieved – adding a few largish piles to the mountains of ideological claptrap (of the left, the right and what have you) that were the habitual accompaniment of the assorted horrors of the twentieth century.

Recognition of this mistake – one that may prove as great as the decision to embark on the Vietnam War – is essential if the best (or at any rate the least disastrous) path out of the mess is to be charted. Otherwise, the mistake may be compounded, and such indeed is the direction in which a substantial new body of opinion now pushes the United States.

In this company are Democrats in Congress who credulously accepted the Bush administration's arguments for the war or simply caved in to administration pressure, hawkish liberal commentators in the same position and a growing minority of right-wing critics.

They now recommend increasing American troop strength in Iraq. Some supported the war and still do. "We must win," says Democratic Senator Joseph Biden, who went on "Good Morning America" to recommend dispatching more troops. His colleague Republican John McCain agrees. The right-wing Weekly Standard is of like mind. Others were doubtful about the war at the beginning but think the United States must "win" now that the war has been launched.

The New York Times, which opposed an invasion without UN Security Council support, has declared in an editorial that "establishing a free and peaceful Iraq as a linchpin for progress throughout the Middle East is a goal worth struggling for, even at great costs." And, voicing a view often now heard, it adds, "We are there now, and it is essential to stay the course." Joe Klein, of Time magazine, states, "Retreat is not an option."

"Winning," evidently, now consists not in finding the weapons of mass destruction that once were the designated reason for fighting the war, but in creating a democratic government in Iraq – the one that will serve as a model for the entire Middle East. Condoleezza Rice has called that task the "moral mission of our time." Stanford professor Michael McFaul has even proposed a new Cabinet department whose job would be "the creation of new states." The Pentagon's job will be restricted to "regime destruction;" the job of the new outfit, pursuing a "grand strategy on democratic regime change," will be, Houdini-like, to pull new regimes out of its hat.

On the other hand, the Center for Strategic and International Studies, which recently produced a report on the situation in Iraq, thinks a big part of the problem is bad public relations and counsels "an intense communications and marketing campaign to help facilitate a profound change in the Iraqi national frame of mind."

These plans to mass-produce democracies and transform the mentalities of whole peoples have the look of desperate attempts – as grandiose as they are unhinged from reality – to overlook the obvious: First, that people, not excluding Iraqis, do not like to be conquered and occupied by foreign powers and are ready and able to resist; second, that disarmament, which is indeed an essential goal for the new century, can only, except in the rarest of circumstances, be achieved not through war but through the common voluntary will of nations. It is not the character of the occupation, it is occupation itself that in a multitude of ways the Iraqis are rejecting.

The practical problem of Iraq's future remains. The Iraqi state has been forcibly removed. That state was a horrible one; yet a nation needs a state. The children must go to school; the trains must run; the museums must open; murderers must be put in jail. But the United States, precisely because it is a single foreign state, which like all states has a highly self-interested agenda of its own, is incapable of providing Iraq with a government that serves its own people. The United States therefore must, to begin with, surrender control of the operation to an international force.

It will not suffice to provide "UN cover" for an American operation, as the administration now seems to propose. The United States should announce a staged withdrawal of its forces in favor of and in conjunction with whatever international forces can be cobbled together. It should also (but surely will not) provide that force with about a hundred billion or so dollars to do its work – a low estimate of what is needed to rebuild Iraq.

Biden says we must win the war. This is precisely wrong. The United States must learn to lose this war – a harder task, in many ways, than winning, for it requires admitting mistakes and relinquishing attractive fantasies. This is the true moral mission of our time (well, of the next few years, anyway).

The cost of leaving will certainly be high, but not anywhere near as high as trying to "stay the course," which can only magnify and postpone the disaster. And yet – regrettable to say – even if this difficult step is taken, no one should imagine that democracy will be achieved by this means. The great likelihood is something else – something worse: perhaps a recrudescence of dictatorship or civil war, or both. An interim period – probably very brief – of international trusteeship is the best solution, yet it is unlikely to be a good solution. It is merely better than any other recourse.

The good options have probably passed us by. They may never have existed. If the people of Iraq are given back their country, there isn't the slightest guarantee that they will use the privilege to create a liberal democracy. The creation of democracy is an organic process that must proceed from the will of the local people. Sometimes that will is present, more often it is not. Vietnam provides an example. Vietnam today enjoys the self-determination it battled to achieve for so long; but it has not become a democracy.

On the other hand, just because Iraq's future remains to be decided by its talented people, it would also be wrong to categorically rule out the possibility that they will escape tyranny and create democratic government for themselves. The United States and other countries might even find ways of offering modest assistance in the project; it is beyond the power of the United States to create democracy for them.

The matter is not in our hands. It never was.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jonathan Schell, the Harold Willens Peace Fellow of the Nation Institute, is the author of the recently published "The Unconquerable World: Power, Nonviolence, and the Will of the People" (Metropolitan).

truthout.org



To: Wowzer who wrote (27154)9/9/2003 2:06:40 AM
From: Karen Lawrence  Respond to of 89467
 
" I know when I go on some wild ass crazy spending spree I usually go out and look for ways to cut my income to offset it. I will just make it up later when i get a better job... " Perfect metaphor. This is a great piece. Thank you for writing it.



To: Wowzer who wrote (27154)9/9/2003 9:29:13 AM
From: crdesign  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 89467
 
Let's just consider the $87Bil request for the war;

I am assuming an Iraqi population of 25mil.
It divides out that we're spending close to $3500 on EVERY citizen in a country we don't even belong.

For what? Cheap oil?

I don't know about the rest of you but I'm still paying $1.81 a gal for regular fuel(while crude is under $30 a barrel?) & We were just told by our local news that NG prices will be significantly higher this winter.

I thought we went into Iraq to find WMD's and stabilize our fuel prices. Neither assignment have or ever will be accomplished following this textbook.

If I was a teacher and Geo. Bush was to be graded, he deserves nothing better than a big fat "F!"

He should consider going back to drinking.
It's probably all he was ever good at anyway.

I could use the $3500 to pay my heating bill this winter.

Stating the obvious but the point should be printed,
Tim