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Politics : Moderate Forum -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Rambi who wrote (3539)	9/12/2003 11:26:09 AM
From: Dale Baker	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 20773

The real vainglory in American thinking right now is assuming that everyone in the universe should want to "drink beer, watch football, vote, and sue their neighbour", along with driving SUVs and having fast food several times a week. That's what I admire about the Canadians. They could all be little American clones if they chose - and they don't. Expecting people whose cultural references are many miles further away to make the leap is stupid - and typical Washington naivete.

To: Rambi who wrote (3539)	9/12/2003 11:47:53 AM
From: zonder	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 20773

I agree with you completely. The neocons seem to see the world as a sort of large missionary field rather than a shared mission with other cultures. And have you noticed that if you try to understand a people, offer any explanations, it is seen as making excuses, or even being a traitor? Very sad but true. Reminds me of the ME rather than a Western democracy, actually... Anyway, a word that came up a lot in Friedman's interviews was "dignity". The Arab male feels humiliated It's a concept of utmost importance. ME people die, and are expected to die, for their honor & dignity. That is behind some of the sicker traditions like the family deciding the youngest boy should kill his teenage sister who was seen alone with a guy. I have the utmost respect for the right to live in peace and happiness of every single Jewish person on this planet, but anyone who has been to that part of the world can tell you the way the Israelis are going about achieving this right is just not right. It is not just dignity. and the author of that for them is the Israelis, and by extension us Obviously. Sooner or later, Americans will have to ask themselves just what it is worth to them to finance the Israeli expansion into occupied territories. When Israel says how they have improved the lot of Arabs, it ignores the fact that when you treat someone like a second-class citizen whose own culture and values are infinitely inferior to your own, of course you breed resentment and anger. Heh. Israelis have improved the lives of Palestinians the way early American settlers have improved the lives of Africans they brought in for slavery. I repeat- this is NO excuse for suicide bombings and terrorism, but an attempt at understanding that could possibly lead to solutions- why is that so difficult? I agree with you. Israel tries to portray Palestinians as irrational, pyromaniac Fremen, whereas they are also human beings. The difference between us and them is that they have been pushed around for so long, until no hope remains, friends, family, and loved ones being killed around them by an oppressor so much stronger than they are that they just don't believe they have anything to live for anymore. They have no life, so they just live for revenge. That is very twisted, scary, and sad at the same time. Oops, my plane is boarding :-) ...but not before: But also, for the ME to think that we are the above is also a big mistake and gets in the way of their understanding us and the good things we might be able to bring to the table. I know! I was just trying to bring "humour" to the table :-) I love your thought of a "round table", by the way. Have a good weekend.

To: Rambi who wrote (3539)	9/12/2003 5:25:56 PM
From: rrufff	Respond to of 20773

There is a lot of truth to what you post. However, it fails to acknowledge that much of the Palestinians' plight is caused by their brothers who have kept them as political pawns. Many of the ME rulers have deflected their own tyranny and lack of public support by focusing on their hatred of Israel as a unifying factor. The simple reality is that recent polls show no strong desire for the average Palestinian to go back to his home of 50 years ago. Rather, he wants a job, some compensation and to be treated with dignity as you post. I believe that is all doable. I enjoy reading posts from those who claim that "we Americans" really only want to impose our "hamburger eating life style" on others. These people take an approach that they criticize in others. They feel that they are the ones that are right and everyone else is a "cowboy." As one who rarely eats meat, who can handle "cuisine" with the best French tarts, who has read probably millions of words in books and on the internet, and who loves to get opinions from others, I am amused at the haughty looks of scorn lathered from Parisian cafes at the "ugly Americans." It's interesting what a little respect would do all around. Ooops, have to catch my bus. <ggg>