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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (114626)	9/12/2003 11:21:47 PM
From: Bilow	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Hi Hawkmoon; Re: "What was the first nation to recognize the newly established state of Israel? ... Look at how Eisenhower dealt with the French, British, and Israelis in 1956. ..." I don't know who was the first nation (okay, well I looked it up, see the P.S.), but I do know that it was a hell of a lot longer ago than 20 years. And 1956 was what, 47 years ago? Since none of your points date to the last 20 years, I note that you apparently agree with my claim, which I will restate: US foreign policy in the Middle East has been tilted towards Israel for 20+ years. Since you apparently agree with my comment, you must then understand why the Arabs are upset with us now. Hell, I never stated that the Arabs were upset with us in the 1940s and 1950s. In fact, we had wonderful relationships with the Arabs back then, and this very fact is more proof of my claim that our sorry relationship now is due to our support of Israel, which you do not deny. But why don't you go over to the Arabs and explain to them why they should ignore our foreign policy of the past 20+ years, and instead only consider our policy of the 1940s and 1950s? And while you're at it, maybe you should tell the neocons that instead of looking at the French policy regarding Bush's war, the neocons should instead remember how the French assisted us in the 1780s. Hey, you want the Arabs to ignore the last 20+ years, don't you think the neocons should be able to ignore the last 20 months? -- Carl P.S. I really don't see your point about the recognition of Israel. In addition to it being a hell of a lot longer ago than 20+ years, the fact is that the US was apparently first with a form of recognition: At that point, the State of Israel came into existence. The United States recognized the provisional Jewish government as de facto authority of the Jewish state within minutes. The Soviet Union granted de jure recognition almost immediately in 1948 along with seven other states within the next five days (Guatemala, Byelorussia, the Ukraine, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Uruguay, and Yugoslavia). palestinefacts.org

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (114626)	9/14/2003 4:51:49 PM
From: Maurice Winn	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

<Look at how Eisenhower dealt with the French, British, and Israelis in 1956. (GET OUT of Sinai!! NOW!!)> Hawk, that was a mistake. The place should have been taken over by the UN then and the oil used for better purposes than funding Sheikdom Palatial Glory, the most absurd extravagance the world has ever seen, and Jihad against The Great Satan. Now the USA is trying to replicate what the British had already achieved - some semblance of order in the middle east after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire and German Nazis. It's no easy task now. The oil income is insufficient for the task. The populations hugely expanded. The USA has been raised on anti-British IRA nonsense and Paul Revere Independence Day nostalgia and that contributes to bad judgments. Now, the USA is doing what the British did hundreds of years ago = building an empire. First comes some trade. Then some military support. Then a few conflicts. Then some institutionalism. Then treaties of annexation. But the British treated aliens as humans, giving them full human rights as British subjects. Americans are still in the aliens = subhuman or second class human mindset. Because there is a large German, Irish, and other non-English part of the USA population, who don't have Magna Carta in their background identity, it might be that freedom is hard won for UnAmericans. Contrary to popular American ignorance, the USA did not invent freedom and is not the main defender of it. The USA is actually quite a repressive place. Freedom has been under siege around the world for decades, including in the USA, as Big Government has filtered into every corner of life and their ability to do so greatly enhanced. bl.uk This bit is amusing and obviously discriminatory against Jews, whose lending of money is circumscribed in the first clause compared with other lenders. Not so in the second, but only as an afterthought. There was no need to set Jews as a separate category with the last sentence added. <* (10) If anyone who has borrowed a sum of money from Jews dies before the debt has been repaid, his heir shall pay no interest on the debt for so long as he remains under age, irrespective of whom he holds his lands. If such a debt falls into the hands of the Crown, it will take nothing except the principal sum specified in the bond. * (11) If a man dies owing money to Jews, his wife may have her dower and pay nothing towards the debt from it. If he leaves children that are under age, their needs may also be provided for on a scale appropriate to the size of his holding of lands. The debt is to be paid out of the residue, reserving the service due to his feudal lords. Debts owed to persons other than Jews are to be dealt with similarly. > The rest of the world is somewhat concerned that the USA wants to be Big Brother. There are some indications that that is true, despite all the protestations to the contrary. The USA is against democracy. We the Sheeple have seen what happens when anti-democratic forces get into expansionary dominant power mindset and have the money and military to back their expansion. The USA is against democracy overall. Sure, the USA is in favour of neutered countries voting among themselves to decide how best to comply with USA requirements. But they aren't in favour of democracy where it matters. The USA is wanting to set the rules. Well, while youse guys are swell fellas, the next one ruling the Empire might not be so pleasant. While it's a dog eat dog world, the big dog is very scary. We the Sheeple need to defend ourselves against Big Dogs because on a round planet, there's nowhere to run. When the Big Dog shows no sign of wishing to be defanged, along with the little dogs, We the Sheeple are nervously milling around, watching as one by one our flock is fleeced and eaten. Mqurice