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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Bilow who wrote (114637)	9/13/2003 5:07:56 PM
From: Hawkmoon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

when he refuses to learn from the mistakes in Iraq, to recognize that it was a mistake, and to explore alternative strategies in the Middle East. We learn FROM mistakes made in carrying out the overall mission. This is normal and has happened throughout the history of ALL military operations, not just the US. The only issue I have is that some of these mistakes we've made (such a lack of post-war planning) were so blatant as to approach negligence on the part of war planners. And I've stated as such in previous posts, as well as stating that the democrats could legitimately make a political issue out of it in the upcoming campaign. I DO NOT believe that overthrowing Saddam was a mistake. Nor do I believe that attempting to ignite some semblance of nascent democratic reforms within that country, if not the entire region, is a mistake either. NOR DO I SEE YOU PROVIDING ANY VIABLE ALTERNATIVES!! That is, unless you call sitting on our international @sses and hope that globalization takes care of the issue, an viable "alternative". The FACT is, Bilow, that globalization has been on-going throughout the world with little political effect on the mid-east. If anything, it has aggravated the alienation many people feel because any modernization has merely widened the gap between the elites and the population. There is NO upward social mobility within the region, nor a structure that encourages it. For Arabs to obtain economic and political opportunity, they must travel to the west. Thus, the demography of the region is forcing more and more muslims to flee the region, emigrating to the west and creating social turmoil in western nations. These are all FACTS that you seemingly wish to hide under the political "bed", to ignore until such time that they become so tumultuous that they force you to deal with them. Globalization is great for those who have the ability to participate. But unfortunately, people living in that region can not truly participate unless the system is owned by them.. And through ownership, there is accountability. Friedman mentioned yesterday in that CEIP discussion that Larry Summers had a phrase. "No one ever washes a rental car". IOW, unless people have a stake in their economy, they will be renters from those who do own the means of economic production and political priviledge. That has to change. And such change will not come overnight (It didn't for western society). But every journey begins with a single step, and I would opine that attempting such a transition in Iraq is such a major step. It may fail. But I don't see another viable alternative. And the demographics, and the events of 9/11 dictate that the process MUST be expedited. We don't have the luxury of just waiting for the wheels of progress in the region to finally turn for the muslim world. Hawk

To: Bilow who wrote (114637)	9/13/2003 5:54:57 PM
From: Win Smith	Respond to of 281500

Given the propensity , both globally and locally, for certain parties to blame liberals under every bed for all that is wrong with the world, I find any conservative whining "blame game" to be pretty ironic. But then, they've also taken to whining "polical hatred" about anybody criticizing W, which is extremely rich when you look back at the Clinton years for examples of what real political hatred looks like. Anyway, true believers gotta believe. And when the "FACTS" line gets thrown out, I always have to fondly remember that "facts are stupid things", according to one conservative patron saint anyway. Depends on which "FACTS" you believe it, but that line seems to be apropos enough for the usual true believer "FACTS".