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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (115254)	9/19/2003 1:07:10 PM
From: GST	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

<you need desperation together with indoctrination, and if the indocrtination is strong enough, you don't even need the desperation> I agree with that. But with such desperation as we see now, the cycle of violence is easy to sustain. You cannot say where the cycle of violece begins -- each side takes their own starting point and blames the other. Israel has tried to impose a military solution -- and they failed. Did the Palestinians fail? Absolutely. So we have a couple of tragic failures -- nothng to crow about. The issue is not where it began because on that there can never be agreement -- the issue is how, where and when will it end?

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (115254)	9/19/2003 1:30:12 PM
From: Jacob Snyder	Respond to of 281500

<Israel's response was caused by the terrorist campaign> What's cause, what's effect? "In mid-August 2002, I was returning in a Ford taxi at about 4.30pm with my brother and a friend. That day we had managed to find a day's work in Jerusalem. A Border Police jeep stopped the taxi on Okef Street in the Ein Yalo area in Jerusalem. The police asked for our identity cards. As soon as they noticed our green Palestinian identity cards, they pulled us out of the taxi. They threw us on the ground, searched us and started hitting us. We were then forced to stand with our hands up in the air for about 45 minutes. Altogether, the Border Police were holding nine Palestinians standing by the side of the road. There were also nine Border Policemen. "One asked to leave as he had been standing there for a long time. Two policemen grabbed him and threw him down a slope next to the road and then ordered him to walk back up and return to his position. One policeman called out the name of Jabr, another Batir resident. The policeman asked him: 'Are you the one whose head hurts?' Jabr said: 'Yes'. The policeman asked: 'Exactly where does it hurt?' and Jabr pointed to an ear. The policeman struck him on that ear with his M16 and told him: 'That will make it heal quickly.' The policeman then called each of us one by one and ordered us to walk down the slope by the road. Four Border Policemen were waiting at the bottom. As I waited my turn, I heard those ahead being beaten. The four policemen beat me with truncheons. After about an hour-and-a-half, the policemen took us to a remote area up the hill. They made us form two lines and surrounded us. The officer pointed to each of us one by one and said: 'I don't like the look of him.' Then the policemen would beat the one selected all over his body, using truncheons. The officer told us: 'This is the last time you enter Israel. You are prohibited from returning. We're going to let you go now. Next time, we'll kill you.' As we passed the policemen, they threw each of us on the ground and beat us again. Eventually only Jabr remained at the top of the hill. We watched from below as the nine border policemen beat him. I called the Israeli Police on my mobile. They told me that they would send a patrol. No one came. The Border Policemen beat Jabr for about half an hour. Afterwards, he could not walk properly. The Border Policemen asked us to fetch him, so we went and carried him away." In the years following the signing of the 1993 Declaration of Principles, Israel seized extensive tracts of land from Palestinians to build a network of bypass roads connecting Israeli settlements throughout the Occupied Territories to each other and to Israel. In the same period Israel stepped up the pace of construction of settlements in the Occupied Territories to an unprecedented level. The number of Israeli settlers increased from 240,000 in 1993 to 380,000 by the end of 2000. The World Bank estimates that about 60 per cent of the Palestinian population is living below the poverty line of US$2.1 per day and that real per capita food consumption has dropped by up to 30 per cent in the past three years. amjerusalem.org

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (115254)	9/19/2003 1:46:17 PM
From: Chas.	Respond to of 281500

Nadine, Atta was a middle class Egyptian, he was unable to get into a decent university in Egypt, he reluctantly sought and accepted admission to University in Hamburg, Germany.........while there he became acquainted with radical Islamic fundamentalists...after graduation he returned to Egypt and sought employment, he was not able to find a job commensurate with his degree...he returned to Hamburg and the friends he had met there....he then disappeared for 2 years finally resurfacing in Europe, as a leader of a Radical Islamic Cell (it is suspected the missing 2 years were spent in Afghanistan training with Bin Laden)he then went on to form a cell in America and you know the rest...... His original disillusionment with the Egyptian system of education and employment turned him to finding solace and comfort with the thinking of the radial Islamic fundamentalists who blamed all of the ME problems on the "Great Satan"............ He was very well educated and could have enjoyed employment most anywhere in Europe or the US, his New Mindset wouldn't allow that..........I don't think it ever approached "Despair" with this guy....he just got into believing that he would be doing a good thing for the Muslim World........what a tragedy for everyone concerned. The power of Religion.......... didn't someone say it was the "opium for the masses" anyway that is the short version, there are chapters written on the subject.... regards