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Strategies & Market Trends : The Epic American Credit and Bond Bubble Laboratory -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: David W. Taylor who wrote (921)9/21/2003 3:25:45 PM
From: philv  Respond to of 110194
 
Here is my take on things.

Although there will be no relief in the jobs market, due to printing of money and debt, US domestic inflation (costs) will nevertheless continue to rise proportionate to the fall in the value of the US dollar.

US standard of living will drop because of the lack of savings, high debt,deficit and declining value of the dollar. Because commodities and everything else is price in terms of the US dollar, gold and commodities will rise. If the dollar drops dramatically, gold could explode. These are the best scenarios I can imagine.

Maybe Mr. Greenbackscam has some sneaky tricks yet & hitherto unknown.

forbes.com



To: David W. Taylor who wrote (921)9/21/2003 3:45:53 PM
From: que seria  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 110194
 
I concur re: your scenario. Inflation will follow deflation when the Bernanke theorem takes hold and gov't gets serious about inflation (which necessarily refers to the money supply, not the price of things). The feds have been facing too much deflationary headwind for their meager inflationary efforts, what with people exercising some common sense and survival skills about borrowing (more in business than personally).

A policy of inflation will entail monetizing debt and liberally suppling cash to those who will spend it, thereby also driving out of hiding more dollars from those ordinarily inclined to save them. Taxes on wealth, taxes on cash, taxes on gold and collectibles. They can happen here. They may look like the best options if the feds recognize the destruction of essential entrepreneurial zeal that attends punitive income tax rates. The more people are hurting, the more options will be "on the table."

The inevitable inflationary response of gov't to deflation will tank the dollar (if it hasn't tanked already). That will likely be relative to gold, as other nations do the same. That will put gold in a position of very long term strength in the U.S. and worldwide, unless/until gov'ts try to seize it or cut off its monetary role via taxation. An inflationary policy that works will not just put the feds behind the curve in preventing dollar debasement; they'll be trumpeting their success in getting there.

I think we're far from that inflationary scenario now, although I agree with those who post about existing and coming rises of the prices of things we need, and the bogus nature of the CPI "measure." I just doubt we get inflation in the real, monetary sense until a new ruler is elected to deliver it, and his policies have had a chance to play out after taking office in 2005. It is the deflationary trend that I believe will deliver a correction in gold shares, relative to cash.



To: David W. Taylor who wrote (921)9/21/2003 7:31:04 PM
From: glenn_a  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 110194
 
Hi David.

I haven't read Shilling's "Deflation", so am not aware of his perspective. A few thoughts/comments, and would appreciate your view:

1 - The primary lens through which I prefer to look at today's global economy is that there are financial assets (be they currency, bonds, or equities) that confer "claims" on real assets (e.g. goods and services) that will not be realized. This, because these assets are someone else's debts, and there is simply not the earnings power in the global economy to repay these debts, and thus realize the value of the asset claims.

2 - So therefore, one of two things (or some combination of these two things) must happen: (i) inflation: in which the existing claims are made less onerous to the debtor, with the consequence that their value to the creditor is decreased, or (ii) deflation: in which the creditor retains full value to his claims, but severe stress is put on the debtor to generate the earnings power to pay back his debts. Am I thinking straight here?

3 - In our present situation, I can't help but feel that there will be a tacking against the deflationary headwinds - inflate right, deflate left - inflict pain on the debtor, inflict pain on the creditor - until over a period of many years, the system again becomes solvent. As I'm sure you're aware, there's an ongoing debate if the economic collapse of the 1930's was exacerbated due to an excessive reliance on deflationary policy response. In the late 1920's, nations were extraordinarily slow to appreciate the ramifications of deflation, evidenced most particularly by their defense of their currencies vis-a-vis the gold standard, and how slow they were to realize the benefits of breaking from the gold standard: done first by Great Britain in 1931, then the U.S. in 1933, and finally France in 1934.

BTW, for an excellent overview of Central Bank maneuvers in the 1920's and early 1930's, please see the series of posts from Carol Quigley's 1964 classic Tragedy and Hope: A History of the World in our Time beginning here:

Message 17855776

... the first four posts are good background (really, it is extraordinary reading!), but analysis of the Inflation/Deflation of the early 20th century through to 1947 begins here:

Message 17855813

Some interest parallels between then and now by the way. Quoting Professor Quigley:

"The key to the world situation in the period before 1914 is to be found in the dominant position of Great Britain. This position was more real than apparent."

... today, substitute Great Britain with the U.S.

The apex of the system was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basle, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world’s central bank, in the hands of men like Montagu Norman of the Bank of England, Benjamin Strong of the New York Federal Reserve Board, Charles Rist of the Bank of France, and Hjalmar Schacht of the Reichsbank, sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world.

... and what has changed since the early 20th century?

The commander in chief of the world system of banking control was Montagu Norman, Governor of the Bank of England, who was built up by the private bankers to a position where he was regarded as an oracle of all matters of government and business.

... well, don't even need to point out today's correlate of Montagu Norman.

4 - The primary difference between the 1920's and 1930's and today was that in the 1920's there WAS a gold standard. And since Nixon closed the gold window in the early 70's, we have been operating without a gold standard today. The psychology of operating on a gold standard biased the system, perhaps unnecessarily, to a deflationary policy response. I do not see such a bias today. I think that just as the challenge of the early 1930's was to learn to "loosen" reliance on the gold standard, today's challenge is surely the reverse, to move the system away from the US$ standard towards ... what? This will have to be some managed currency equivalence ... and gold to my mind could well play a role in this rebalancing.

5 - In this rebalancing of global claims on wealth, I cannot see how the US comes out better than China. There is NO way (to my mind) that the Chinese Yuan is revalued downward vis-a-vis the US$. The way I see it, while all countries will encounter the tacking of inflation/deflation to normalize financial asset claims, Japan, China, Taiwan, Korea, etc will face an emphasis on deflationary pressures as their currencies appreciate. The US, OTOH, will inevitable to my mind see an emphasis on inflation. If it doesn't, then things will get real, real ugly. Because if the world demands the U.S. make good on its financial asset claims at today's value parity, our children and grandchildren will be indentured slaves for the next 200 years.

6 - Re: gold as a store of value. I very much agree that gold will not likely be used as a transaction medium like cash. However, it's role as a store of value may be very important, and could easily sustain a rise in the price of gold as people prefer to hold gold over US$ as a store of value. And, to my mind, this is very appropriate because ... well the value of the US$ will necessarily be inflated to lessen its burden on $ debtors.

7 - US equities are NOT the place you want to be. And unlike the 1930's, I personally wouldn't be too big a fan of US$ denominated bonds.

Thoughts? Comments?

TIA.

Glenn :)



To: David W. Taylor who wrote (921)9/21/2003 9:13:03 PM
From: Jim Willie CB  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 110194
 
I heard PRECISELY your argument, and attempted to respond
you did not understand my response, and urgently urge you to check out the Perfect Storm split in our economy

I agree 100% on the finished product side -- deflation

I disagree 100% on the commodity side and imported product side -- inflation

I hear you exactly
and you miss a major major major trend
so do the great majority of US economists
they tend to think and view in aggregate terms
the Fed talks about deflation threat, in order to deceive the public into believing as you do, that deflation is continuing
it is, but only in the finished US product side, and wages, and profits

the big story is now BIFURCATION OF THE US ECONOMY

deflation from liquidations and corporate cutbacks and inventory dumping
thus, no pricing power

inflation in energy, commodities, import products, and production costs for firms
thus, rising production costs
thus, diminishing household discretionary spending, pinched budgets

therefore, further worsening crippled corporate earnings
therefore, reduced consumer spending

check Puplava's Perfect Storm series
financialsense.com

our economy is not an aggregate entity
why do you regard it as such?
it is an amalgam of many components
some are exposed to debt risk, and continued price declines
others are exposed to dollar risk, and price rises

the Fed has increased monetary expansion to an extraordinary level of growth
in some months it is rising at over 20% annual rate
this DOES NOT confirm your thesis, but rather contradicts it

also, never in US Economic history have we been spared price inflation during a declining USDollar trend !!!
falling dollar and price inflation go hand in hand

we have EXTREEEEME inflation problems, with manifestations in liquidations and declining prices in finished products in the face of debt collapse

you seriously need to elevate your analysis one level
you are missing the biggest curve ball in American post-war economic history... BIFURCATION

by the way, the next round of USDollar decline will see Asian currency upward appreciations
which will usher in increased imported product prices
thus, increasing longterm interest rates

the low pressure zone of debt-inspired price deflation
will hit the high pressure zone of dollar-inspired price inflation
powered by continued unprecedented monetary expansion feeding the vortex
producing a financial hurricane on the pressure differentials
IT HAS BEEN IN PROGRESS FOR OVER A YEAR
right under economists' elevated snobby noses

with due respect
/ jim

p.s. please dont reply again until you check Puplava's work
it is well worth your time
for instance Chapters 5,6,7



To: David W. Taylor who wrote (921)9/21/2003 9:26:28 PM
From: mishedlo  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 110194
 
Short gold then.
See what happens

M