To: TimF who wrote (175453 ) 9/27/2003 1:44:14 PM From: tejek Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 1578423 "What standard due you use too determine too high or not too high?" The current level. That doesn't answer the question. If I take that statement literally 1 cent less the current level would not be too high, and the current level would always be too high no matter what the circumstances. The current level is too high.....our spending ten years ago was too high. Its all pork. Whole industries have developed around it. The raison d'tre for many small towns is military bases. They're like a punta getting her wages from her pimp. ITS TOO MUCH! ITS UNNECESSARY! ITS AN ABOMINATION........that we spend so much on guns and not butter.I know that you consider the current level too high. I'm asking what criteria you use to determine what is too high and what is not too high. The criteria is that we don't have a sovereign enemy. That war is not imminent. That hostilities are not likely. That a serious challenger is not in the cards.I can not tell you how much I am tired of hearing that "the most important part of our gov't" is military spending/protecting its citizens. Through 4 years of undergrad with a dual major in pol sci. and bus., and 2 years of a grad. program as well as my adult years in LA, and I never once heard that statement until I came to this thread. I realize that its central to the thesis of conservative ideology but it was not the central theme for the founding of this nation. Its central to the existence of any nation. No question that is central but its not the only important function of gov't.........its one of several. True, most people want meat or veggies on their sandwich, maybe both and maybe some spread. But without the bread you don't have the sandwich. That isn't an argument against including the meat. IMO keeping the peace is just one of several vitals areas that requires the gov't's participation IF you can't keep the peace and otherwise control things pretty soon you no longer have a government. Most people want air conditioning and nice seats and radios in their car, but they need the engine more. They need the engine more then even something like turn signals or even doors. The turn signals are vital in the sense that they are legally required and can also help avoid accidents but you still have a functioning care without them. You still don't get my point. You don't have much of a point. Yes, I do but you don't see it because you are so clouded by antiquated thinking. There can be no point but your own. There are many nations on this planet that have very minimal defense spending and do very well. In fact, our defense spending is greater than everyone else's combined. The hawks........those who like to make war......have controlled the direction of this nation for decades. Its time they step aside. Their usefulness is long over.One fourth of our revenues go to defense spending at a time when we have no real sovereign enemy. Its disgusting! Less then a fourth, and nothing really disgusting about it. Slightly less......and its disgusting. What we could do with that money that would enhance our well being and living standards. Its a crime. That percentage is lower then the level at almost any point in the last 60 years. Also a better measure of how well we can afford defense spending is as a percentage of GDP. I don't care what we can afford. We can afford to throw money into the Pacific Ocean but why would we be that stupid.By that measure its less then half of the level that existed for much of the cold war. Basically we cut the burden of what we spend on defense in half. You might argue that we should have cut out perhaps 2/3rds instead but I don't see how only cutting 1/2 of the burden makes it disgusting. Because 1/2 is still way too much.Tim, Bush has asked for $87 billion this year and Cheney said last week that its very likely they'll be back in for roughly $90 billion in the first half of next year. Rummy has asked that approval of the $87 billion be passed by Congress by next Tuesday. I suspect that's because the initial outlay of $80 billion is nearly gone. Its not even a full year yet. Three hundred billion looks very doable and $400 billion very possible Out of the $300 to $400 bil a large part is not military spending, and a big chunk of what is military spending has already been spent (either actually budgeted and spent or the weapons have been used up and are being replaced now and would be replaced even if we were out of Iraq tomorrow afternoon). Continue military operations in Iraq, above and beyond what we would have paid for the soldiers if they where sitting on some army base in the US, probably amounts to more like $100bil, maybe $150bil. The rest is either sunk cost or non-military. You're simply bandying about words. They are war related......the costs resulted because we started a war with Iraq. We are having to p*ss away billions because the neocons didn't like Saddam. Its outrageous! ted