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To: nextrade! who wrote (14093)	10/1/2003 8:26:54 PM
From: Wyätt Gwyön	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 306849

based on that article, a US programmer making 80K, or $40 an hour, makes just twice the national average hourly rate of $20. whereas an Indian programmer, making 5K, or $2.50 an hour, makes more than 10 times the national average of $0.24. quite incredible, that the Indian programmer could make just 1/16 of what the American makes, and yet be comparatively richer by a factor of five. one wonders how long the first world as we know it can persist. thanks for posting. btw, how rich is a person who is making 5K in India? is it really like somebody making 400K here? can they hire live-in maids, butlers, etc? or are such luxuries the province of the truly wealthy making upwards of 10K? at 10K, or 20 times the national average, that would be equivalent to somebody making $400 an hour here, or 800K a year. such a person can probably afford a butler or two.

To: nextrade! who wrote (14093)	10/2/2003 3:57:09 AM
From: Amy J	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 306849

Hi Thread, John Finger's credibility is in question as follows: 1) He makes distortions in the following sentence: RE: "In India, companies can hire labor for 1.18% of the cost of hiring a U.S.-based employee." His example is essentially comparing a rice picker & textile worker, with an American worker. Of course the average wage is lower (for a country whose industries include textile, rice, etc.). His apple to oranges comparison creates distortions. So, an apple to apple comparison between the two countries (e.g. Indian engineer to American engineer), is approx 50% for entry-level engs for the large companies, according to Microsoft. But that figure doesn't include the intangible costs, only the tangible costs to corporate. It is nowhere near his 1% figure nor 16X. RE: "In low-cost countries, companies can hire the best-skilled engineers and scientists for $500 per month." I know for an absolute fact, the best engineers in low-cost countries do not cost $500/month. The absolute best engineers continue to experience upward pricing pressures world-wide. How many engineers, in how many countries, does this person even know? RE: " In fact, a highly skilled computer programmer in the U.S. earns at least $80,000 per year, plus benefits. In India, he earns $5,000 per year, without benefits. Do the math: that's at least 16 professional jobs in India for every one job in the United States." $5,000 per year is not a top engineer in India. So, he's comparing apples to oranges, once again. His information is incorrect - he obviously does not have access to the real data. He should instead try either Dataquest or possibly IDC, of which one had the accurate figures that exactly match the actual industry figures. RE: "Forrester also estimated that in the next 15 years, $136 billion in wages will move offshore" This comment has important value. $136B is a lot of money and would represent a huge cut in tax revenue, if it were to transpire. RE: "More than 2 million jobs have been lost in the United States since 2001" Around 75% of those 2M were classified as manufacturing jobs, which is a lot of jobs. ( However, I wonder how they classify non-mfg jobs at manufacturing companies (e.g. Lucent, etc.) - is a non-mfg position classified as a mfg job if she or he works at a mfg company. Companies that produce hardware products or components, are classified as manufacturing companies, because they manufacture the production of a tangible good. ) RE: "Mandated labor laws in all of Germany and the European Union have caused employers to go to Poland for cheap workers." Poland has mandated labor laws too - 3 months of guaranteed employment, as well as 30-something vacation days, and approximately a 50% tax rate for the entry-level engineer, and the Pzloty is going up (getting more costly) due to its anticipated entry to the EU alongside investors such as Soros. RE: "get rid of the minimum wage (something which will never be done) and let the marketplace determine a viable wage." No, impose a world-wide min wage. RE: "Family leave...should never be mandated by government" I'm very confident a business can operate at a low-cost while remaining the family leave in-tact. Unfortunately, there are too many individuals in power at the gov't (and within businesses) that appear to have no clue about the many younger companies that can indeed operate at a very low-cost per employee while maintaining a family leave policy. In fact, I can show statistics that prove the family leave act actually can reduce costs for businesses. It's truly an outdated concept to think that businesses can't - it's as if those in gov't power don't have that kind of insight, so seem to think according to the outdated compensation model and outdated thinking. A Family Leave policy doesn't equate to "pay more" - unless a business operates in outdated ways. The Republican party was actively trying to kill the Family Leave Act - because they (falsely) claimed it costs businesses more money. When it doesn't. Unfortunately, maybe only for those businesses that apparently aren't modern enough. RE: adj to China's currency Apparently, the futures are starting to act like it's going to be a done-deal. Regards, Amy J

To: nextrade! who wrote (14093)	10/2/2003 4:20:21 AM
From: Amy J	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 306849

Hi Nextrade, RE: "Employer-provided health care, family leave and vacation are mandated, as are many other ill-advised policies. People are wondering why businesses are fleeing California." Wages are the issue. Not health care. Not the FLA. Wages are the largest cost component for many businesses. ( Family leave doesn't cost more, and in fact, can save money if a business operates in a modern way. This guy sounds either outdated or sexist or clueless to newer hard data. ) But back to the issue - guess what makes employees want large wages? Their biggest cost is real estate. To attract labor, the land has to be affordable - because if it isn't affordable, then companies have to pay more to keep or attract talent here. So, the biggest pricing pressure on upward wages is actually the cost of real estate. In conclusion, businesses flee California due to the high cost of non-commercial real estate that puts upward pressure on wages. So, lower the cost of real estate and increase the number of entry-level housing units here, and then wage pressures get reduced. And then jobs would even stay too. The problem for businesses with Calif is actually the high-cost of non-commercial real estate. Serious. So, folks, when is real estate going to ever flatten out ? Why is it taking so long? Regards, Amy J

To: nextrade! who wrote (14093)	10/2/2003 1:24:13 PM
From: RealMuLan	Respond to of 306849

The US DOL statistics has long been outdated. The skilled labor, like software engineering... in India and China is much higher than what was listed in your post. Two Chinese friends of mine now got a job in China, all got PhD degree, one of them had got PhD in Biology in China, only came here for a couple of years of post Doc. and one got his degree from the US, and in physical science. And both of their annual pay is 200,000 Yuan (8.28=$1), and the contract also comes with a free 3-bedroom apartment. If you do some math, in these two cases, their hourly pay is $9.67 US$. And I read from Chinese forum, some lucky young college graduates got paid for 9000 Yuan/month for their first job. so if you do some math, in this case, let's say he has to work some overtime, work 26 days*8 hours=208 hours a month, 9,000 Yuan/208=43 Yuan/hour, equals to US$5.2/hour. Of course the average pay now in big cities are not that high, but it should be bet. 2,000-3,000 Yuan at least for skilled labor, which equals to about $1.2-$1.7 US$.

To: nextrade! who wrote (14093)	10/2/2003 1:29:54 PM
From: bentway	Respond to of 306849

<Let supply and demand solve this problem like it has solved others: get rid of the minimum wage (something which will never be done) and let the marketplace determine a viable wage. Family leave, employer-financed health insurance, a regulated workweek and the minimum wage should never be mandated by government, especially when employers are fleeing to other countries where they can be left alone to flourish.> I think this idea would kill the demand side. After all, we buy most of the produced goods. If we didn't have any money for more than food, no one would sell anything. I don't have the answers, perhaps we are headed twoard global parity in wealth. I sometimes feel like a victim of the Chinese curse "May you live in interesting times!" I feel what were going to end up with is global division along have and have not lines, with the redefinition of the middle class here, and elsewhere.