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Politics : Formerly About Applied Materials -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: zonder who wrote (70667)	10/6/2003 4:45:54 AM
From: E. T.	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 70976

10. Human rights in Iraq before the conflict Human rights violations have been committed on a massive scale against all sectors of society in Iraq. Most of the victims have been suspected political opponents of the government, their relatives, and members of religious and ethnic groups. AI has issued numerous reports over the years, documenting "disappearances"; extrajudicial executions and other unlawful killings, including mass killings of civilians using chemical weapons; imprisonment of prisoners of conscience; long-term detention without charge or trial; grossly unfair trials; systematic torture including the use of judicial punishments such as flogging, ear amputation and branding of the forehead; forcible expulsions; extensive use of the death penalty. web.amnesty.org

To: zonder who wrote (70667)	10/6/2003 12:35:34 PM
From: runes	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 70976

RE: "Credible" numbers of Iraqi brutality - <<Hey, I haven't "rejected" any number.>> Let's see - you labeled my number as "folklore" and a "story". And stated that you would rather have "credible" numbers. ...That may not be an outright rejection but it's pretty damn dismissive. <<I don't know. I asked. Is that a crime?>> ...No, but the above mentioned follow-up comments were rather rude. <<Err, me? Debating THE NEED for war?>> ...A pointless semantic diversion. If you prefer - we were debating the lack of a need for war with you on the pro side. And yes, instead of need, I should have used justification. ...But the point still stands - how could you have an opinion on the Iraq war without having some kind of idea about the consequences to the Iraqi people of leaving Saddam in power? And to the meat of the matter - ...I don't mind if you want to challenge my opinion or even make the occasional snide remark. Such is the nature of these threads. ...But to sit that, ask for "credible" sources on things that are deliberately obscur and then respond by deriding my source (me) while offering nothing of a counter-point - that's just boorish. And for the record - ...That number in my head is what is known as an internal estimate which I formulated over the last year as the Iraq debate raged on. It didn't come from any single source but is a composite of the myriad of numbers that came up in the debate. ...As an example, look at the Amnesty International report I cited - web.amnesty.org <<In October, 23 political prisoners, mainly Shi'a Muslims, were reportedly executed in Abu Ghraib prison.>> ...Now figure at least 5 major prisons (Basra, Mosul, Kirkuk, and two around Baghdad - a reasonable assumption) and 12 months in the year and you are up to about 1200 executions of political prisoners. Add in 50% more for all of the smaller towns and villages (a conservative estimate) and all of a sudden 2000 people seems reasonable. ...Is it really a credible number? No - it is fraught with assumptions starting with AI's credibility and moving on from there. But it is the best that I have to offer.