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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Noel de Leon who wrote (116796)10/14/2003 4:19:56 PM
From: Maurice Winn  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
dictionary.reference.com Good point Noel. Miscegenation is not about religious intermarriage [breeding], it's racial, meaning DNA. Hence, if Israel's laws are okay with Palestinians and Jews marrying, then they aren't antimiscegenationistic.

I didn't know "miscegenation" before this discussion, but thought it was a pretty cool sounding word. But words have meanings and you have killed miscegenation off for this discussion. There's a word for everything in English, so what's the word for banning marriages between people of different religious membership?

What's the definition of membership? Israelis couples could decide for a month before their wedding that they are not members of any religious group, or join the Love Cult which believes in sexual passion as the manifestation of life force of the universe and they wish to worship in that sacred communion. Then, after marrying, they could go back to attending their normal superstitious congregations when they realize that the Love Cult doesn't hold all the answers either, but does introduce some interesting questions, not to mention problems. Such as who should hold the remote and make the bed. I understand nobody cleans the toilets in the middle east; the public ones anyway.

That would save them a trip to Cyprus, but would be bad for business in Cyprus and might lead directly to war between Greece and Turkey as the Cypriot economy failed.

Hmmm, this isn't really USA foreign policy but USA foreign policy seems to be in thrall to the issue of Jews and Moslems getting their act together, which seems to involve management of sexuality, which leads us right back to the Love Cult as the solution to Earth's problems.

The official religion of the NUN could be the Love Cult. That would perhaps lead to popularity and joining by young people around the world and the end of war.

Mqurice



To: Noel de Leon who wrote (116796)10/14/2003 4:26:25 PM
From: Bilow  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Hi Noel de Leon; Re: "Miscegenation is the marriage or cohabitation of a white person with a person of another race. The laws in Israel are not racist but rather are anti mixed religious marriage."

I know this. You had to quote me out of context in order to imply that I didn't. Here's my full quote, with the part that you quoted in bold:

Like I said before, the reason that the US Southern states no longer have miscegenation laws, along with all the other racist stuff, is that the majority of the US forced them to change. That the 85% of Israel that is "secular" is unable to change their laws is ridiculous, and can hardly be excused any more than a similar failing on the part of an Arab state.

Nowhere have I ever said that Israel has laws against miscegenation. As a pedagogical note, by the way, miscegenation is a more general term than your definition: "Miscegenation is the marriage or cohabitation of a white person with a person of another race." The standard definition is: The interbreeding of different races or of persons of different racial backgrounds.
dictionary.reference.com

But why are you bothering to pick on (nonexistent) errors in the use of the definitions of words? People are dying, and you're wasting a post on (a somewhat misleading definition of) the meaning of the word "miscegenation".

The simple fact is that Israel has laws that make Moslems into second class citizens. The southern US once had laws that made blacks into second class citizens. Both these sets of laws are wrong, (and not just the marriage laws, the whole collection of those laws), no matter what you want to call them.

When our blacks revolted, we fixed our laws. When Israel's Moslems revolted, they didn't do a damned thing, except to continue the suppression, and then act innocent when the result is that the Palestinians fought back.


-- Carl



To: Noel de Leon who wrote (116796)10/14/2003 5:15:24 PM
From: Jacob Snyder  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Is Otherness defined by religion or race?

re: <Miscegenation is the marriage or cohabitation of a white person with a person of another race.>

In practice, parents pass their religion to their children, just as they pass their skin color. Religion is a highly conserved meme, in the evolution of ideas. Almost everyone practices the religion of the family and community they were born into. So, it is, de facto, a characteristic determined at birth. Religion acts to separate communities, in exactly the same way race does.

This is especially true, in situations where the contending religions make it nearly impossible to convert.

Islam is a prosyletizing religion, and encourages conversion, but Islam has near-zero appeal to Jews. Among Hindus and Christians, conversions to Islam are largely confined to those at the bottom of society: blacks in America, Untouchables in India.

In Israel, the rules for conversion to Judaism are under the control of the most fundamentalist, rigid, Orthodox ideologues, and they make it nearly impossible to convert. Even when individuals say they have converted, the State and religious authorities frequently don't recognise it. With very rare exceptions, you have to be born a Jew, for the State of Israel to consider you a Jew. On the other hand, those who are born Jews, do not have to observe the religion in any way, or observe any Jewish cultural traditions, to remain Jews. They could even build temples to Baal and Astarte (like Solomon did), and still be considered Jews. So, de facto, being Jewish in Israel is a biologically (i.e., racially, not culturally) determined condition.

In the United States, the situation is different. Here, intermarriage is common, conversion to the spouse's religion is common and goes both ways, and the State does not concern itself with the question of who is a Jew, and who is a Christian. Recently, the State has started to get interested in who is a Muslim, since the loyalty of Muslims is being questioned, in the permanent war we are waging. Unlike Israel, the U.S. State does not award land, housing, water rights, a thousand different subsidies, a monopoly of military and political power, to the members of any one religion.

The word "miscegenation" applies whenever sex and marriage are banned between races. Any races. For instance, the California miscegenation law passed in 1901, which broadened an 1850 law, making it unlawful for white persons to marry "Mongolians" (Chinese). If, instead, California had passed a law outlawing marriages between Christians and Buddhists/Confucians, the practical effect would have been exactly the same. If the BJP in India passed a law outlawing marriage between Hindus and Muslims (and requiring a government permit to convert to Islam), that would be a miscegenation law.

In Israel, it isn't just Muslims whose lives are restricted by the miscegenation laws:

Initially adopted in 1950, the Law of Return gave every Jew the right to immigrate to Israel. An amendment in 1970 extended that right to non-Jews who had a Jewish parent or grandparent, their spouses and the spouses of Jews. Around 250,000 of Israel's Russian immigrants fall under the "grandfather clause." In other words, around one-quarter of Israel's Russian immigrant population is not Jewish according to halachah, or Jewish law. Assuming that half of those 250,000 are women of childbearing age, the figures mean that in coming generations the Jewish state will be producing non-Jews, since halachah does not accept the children of non-Jewish mothers as Jews. With only religious marriages recognized in Israel, the halachic issue raises certain dilemmas. How, for example, would a young man whose immigrant mother wasn't Jewish, but who served in the army and lives like any other secular Israeli, marry a girlfriend who is accepted as Jewish?
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