Silicon Investor (SI) -- The First Internet Community

STOCKTALK

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor. We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community. If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.

Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Eashoa' M'sheekha who wrote (117016)	10/17/2003 12:35:59 AM
From: Nadine Carroll	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

If Oslo was a " failure " and this roadmap is a " failure ",then obviously the two state solution is not the solution at all. Not if the Palestinians don't want it - and they certainly don't seem to. However, they certainly don't want the kind of one state solution you're thinking of, either. That's just a new line to try out on Western Liberals. They want the same kind of one state solution they've been pursuing for sixty years and more, the kind with no Jews. Just look at what they say among themselves, the hatred they teach their children. Do you see any Palestinian of influence, even one, who seriously wants democratic pluralism and cooexistence? I have a small suggestion, why don't they show us that they can manage democratic pluralism among themselves, then we can talk about open borders.

To: Eashoa' M'sheekha who wrote (117016)	10/17/2003 3:10:08 AM
From: frankw1900	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

The general contention, that peace under the two state solution is not possible under circumstances that don't appear capable of evolving beyond their present form. Peace between the Israelis and Palestinians is not possible right now. Neither a one state or two state solution can work under the present circumstances: The PA government couldn't run a candy store before the Israelis took it apart and it wasn't for lack of money or support when it first came into office. Power in Palestine is held by force by criminals and fanatics. One lot work to destroy Israel and drive out the Jews and the others work to maintain their Swiss bank accounts through graft and straight up crime - protection rackets, prostitution, etc. The majority of Palestinians are at the mercy of armed lunatics and criminals. Every sign of nascent opposition to the Arafat/crony regime is beaten, driven out or murdered. And things are made even worse because the Israeli government constantly ruins the infrastucture, impedes travel, puts many Palestinians daily in humiliating situations, occasionally attacks them with guns and planes and, in essence, has Palestinians under continual house arrest. And that's just one side of the equation. Then there's the Israeli side. Do you think Israelis, whether they be Christian, Muslim or Jewish, want to get in bed with Palestinians while Palestinian affairs are controlled by gangsters and terrorists? Who send bombers who kill folk indiscriminately, whatever their faith? Who have forced them to build a monstrosity across the land? That's the man-woman-in-the-street point of view. Official POV isn't a whole lot different. As I pointed out before, the Israeli government doesn't have any reliable official counterpart, (hostile or friendly), on the Palestinian side to negotiate with. What they see is a terrorist who continually tries to murder citizens (who vote regularly, unlike his subjects) and who constantly, notoriously, lies to both his friends and enemies and can only reliably be relied on not to keep his word. Out of this you expect folk to make a single state? You expect the Palestinians to live peaceably with Jews who have treated them so badly? You expect the Jews to give up their security concerns and cede control of the armed forces? You expect Israelis to live under yet another miserable ME kleptocracy? Their corruption is plenty bad enough - you expect them to live in circumstances where it's orders of magnitude worse? It's bad enough the Palestinans live under two tyrannies, so you expect the Israelis to join them under one? Neither a one state nor two state solution to the conflict is possible while the gangsters and fanatics control Palestinian affairs. People who have voluntarily united usually have had the same kind of government. You will not see Israel and Palestine combining until they have same kind of government. Israel has modern, democratic government. The Palestinians have an archaic tyranny. IF Oslo was a " failure " and this roadmap is a " failure ",then obviously the two state solution is not the solution at all. Say what?! Oslo was a failure because it empowered the wrong folk in Palestine. It had no costs for Israelis or Palestinians for non performance and bad performance. But these faults say nothing about the possibility or desirability of one state or two. The "Road map" is bound to fail unless it achieves its most important objective, which is reform of the Palestinan Authority, extirpation of Hamas etc, and curtailment of Israeli expansion, either official or unofficial. I think it will fail because it doesn't have any enforceable penalties for non-performance. But again, this has no bearing on the possibilty, or desirability of one state or two. OK, the $64 question. If The PA is reformed and becomes modern will the Israelis go along with the rest of the idea - independent Palestinian state? A real one. With sensible boundaries, no Bantusans. I don't know. It hasn't happened yet, has it? I expect they will. A modern PA would have Sharon on the ropes within a year or two. Paul Adams doesn't really say it any better than you. He just uses more words. What jumped out of the article was this: Still, the polls show that the two-state formula remains the favoured solution to the conflict among both Israelis and Palestinians to this day. But, also, according to Adams, the Palestinian intellectuals and terrorists find the one state direction attractive. This is, for sure, the one thing the Israelis won't go for, except for the extremists, who wish to see a single Jewish state. It would appear ordinary Palestinians and Israelis have more idea of what's possible and reasonable than do these intellectuals, extremists and terrorists. Adams is reporting this as if it's a new thing but the bagful of terrorists and intellectuals have mostly always been for a one state solution. As have Arafat and his cronies - this is wrong: The official Palestinian leadership grouped around Mr. Arafat is too wedded to the Palestinian Authority, even in its much-diminished current condition, to embrace the vision of a single state. Most of them have always been in favour of a one state solution. One with no Jews. What weds them to the PA is the fact that, due to their activities, there is practically no other vehicle to graft and power in the area.