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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Sam who wrote (117053)	10/17/2003 2:30:42 PM
From: aladin	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

Sam, We are up against a people who think. They survived 2000 years of pogroms not by hitting back, but by thinking. They invented and successfully promoted Socialism, Communism, human rights and democracy so that persecuting them would appear to be wrong, so they may enjoy equal rights with others. Hard to believe this drivel comes from the only successful Islamic country. How was it accepted by the other members? Ramblings of an old man - or? John

To: Sam who wrote (117053)	10/17/2003 4:39:50 PM
From: Jacob Snyder	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

re: Mahathir's speach: The problem, as he sees it: 1. The complaint against the West, is not that they have impoverished the Muslims, but that they have humiliated them. Present American and Israeli policy, is to maximally humiliate Muslims, to force them to submit totally. 2. "None of our countries are truly independent. We are under pressure to conform to our oppressors’ wishes about how we should behave, how we should govern our lands, how we should think even." 3. Uncompromising defiance from a position of weakness, just leads to serial defeats, as in Israel. His solution: 1. unite. Stop fighting each other, stop acting as proxies for America. 2. Opposition to Israel as a uniting theme for all Muslims. But "make a strategic retreat", negotiate and compromise, until Muslim nations are economically and scientifically advanced (i.e., a long time from now). Act as Saladin did with King Richard of England (i.e., negotiate a truce that allows free trade and access for all to the holy sites). 3. Education, especially in the sciences, even if this means using Western authors. He specifically recalled the Golden Age of Islam, when Muslim scholars studied and translated the Greek classics. 4. Focus on economic development, rather than cultural issues such as dress codes. 5. The root cause of Muslim's military defeats, is a failure to study science and industrialize. 6. Poverty and fatalism are UnIslamic. 7. Terrorism is not the solution, as it only causes more warfare with non-Muslims, infighting among Muslims, and falling further behind economically. This is a much more realistic alternative to the militant Islamists, than what the U.S. is trying to do. If this vision triumphs, the West will have to give up garrissoning the oil fields and propping up proxy States. But we can trade and co-exist with them, as we can't with the Taliban and Al Queda. Mahathir's proposed long-term truce with Israel, could become a permanent peace. If Mao's China can redirect their efforts, and now concentrates on internal economic development, as the path to national power, so can Islam. And the West can live with that.

To: Sam who wrote (117053)	10/18/2003 7:22:57 PM
From: Jacob Snyder	Respond to of 281500

Opinions divided on Mahathir's speech: "We view them with contempt and derision," said the US State Department. "Gravely offensive," said the foreign minister of Italy, the current chair of the European Union. Malaysian diplomats in London and Berlin were summoned for a dressing down. Dr Mahathir, a well-travelled politician of vast experience, surely knew his remarks would be roundly condemned in the West. It may give those critics, who dislike his trenchant criticism of globalisation and the dominance of the West, the perfect excuse to dismiss him as irrelevant. But the reaction from among the delegates and journalists was very telling. Afghan President Hamid Karzai said he had not interpreted the remarks as being anti-Semitic, while Yemen's Foreign Minister Abubakar al-Qirbi said: "I don't think they were anti-Semitic at all. I think he was basically stating the fact to the Muslim world." One Malaysian Chinese reporter with an international news agency rushed to Dr Mahathir's aid. "He's my Prime Minister," she said. "Of course I'll defend him." "But surely you don't believe all this about an international Jewish conspiracy?" I asked. "Yes," she said. "It's true. Everyone knows it is." An Iranian journalist privately took the same line. "Of course the Jews rule the world," he said. "Look at America. They control all the companies. The politicians need their money for elections so they support Israel." These were not the marginal neo-Nazis spilling their views over the internet, these were intelligent professionals. They agree with what Dr Mahathir said. Malaysians surprised Such views go unchallenged and are common currency in much of the Muslim world. In Malaysia's racially diverse society crude racial stereotypes abound - the Malays are lazy, the Chinese greedy, the Indians drunk. All are as bankrupt as any racial stereotype, but all are used casually by a nation of people who nevertheless rub along together pretty successfully. So there was surprise that Dr Mahathir's remarks should attract so much condemnation in the West. There is no understanding here of the taboo that surrounds anti-Jewish views in the West. There is no comprehension that Westerners' views of themselves changed forever when British and American soldiers stumbled among the skeletal forms of those who had survived the Nazi death camps and discovered the mass graves of the millions who died. The Muslim world does not live with this guilt, does not pay much heed to the distinction Western critics of the Israeli state make between it and the Jews. For them Israel, Jews, they are all the same - they see them as people who stole Arab land in 1947 and who have compounded their crimes ever since. news.bbc.co.uk ...the speech, which received a standing ovation, has been endorsed by other Muslim leaders. Malaysian Foreign Minister Syed Hamid Albar said the premier's remarks about Jews had been taken out of context. It was a "speech addressed to Muslims asking them to work hard and affirm their personality", said the minister, adding: "I'm sorry that they have misunderstood the whole thing". Mr Albar said the main point of the speech had been to persuade Muslims against using violence to pursue their aims. But the speech was criticised by Australian Foreign Minister Alexander Downer, as well as the governments of the United States, Germany and Italy, which holds the presidency of the European Union. Anti-Nazi campaigners described Mr Mahathir's words as "an absolute invitation for more hate crimes and terrorism against Jews". news.bbc.co.uk

To: Sam who wrote (117053)	10/18/2003 10:49:44 PM
From: Jacob Snyder	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Mahathir in his own words: 3. The third millennium and the 21st Century has not brought a better human civilisation even though the human race is highly skilled and clever. The age of Information Technology, the age of knowledge has arrived. But unfortunately man has become arrogant because of his capabilities. Not much of the knowledge that Man has gained is used for the good of humanity, but more for increasing the capacity to oppress and kill more people. 4. The greatness of a nation is measured by the invention and possession of weapons that can kill more people and not by the greatness of its civilisation. With the total number of nuclear warheads able to destroy the whole world and all of mankind, they forced other nations to submit to them. It is clear that mankind has not advanced beyond the Stone Age when power equals right or might is right. Those who are powerful can do what they like. Those who are weak must submit to whatever fate befalls them. 5. Justice and truth have no place in the calculations of the powerful. Without embarrassment they use two different measures one for them and one for the others. Whatever they do is right and proper. But the same thing done by others are wrong and improper. 14. Actually the possibility of terror attacks has increased because Israel, which oppresses Palestine, used the war against terrorism to upgrade its terror attacks against the Palestinians. Ariel Sharon, the Prime Minister of Israel, believes that terror can be stopped by more terror against those whom he claims are sponsors of terrorists. 15. Every time Israel and its people are attacked by the Palestinian suicide bombers, Sharon orders more Palestinians to be killed. The ultimate was the attack against Jenin where concrete houses were destroyed while the occupants were still in them. And so hundreds of Palestinians were killed, far more than the Israelis who were killed by the Palestinian suicide bombers. But the Israeli action not only fails to reduce terror attacks, it actually causes much greater anger among Muslims, which can cause even more terrorism. 17. Ariel Sharon must understand, and the supporters of Sharon within and outside the country, must also understand that countering terrorism with worse terrorism will not save Israel. As the English saying goes; "you are painting yourself into a corner." 44. What is more unfortunate is that as soon as the government of a Muslim country tries to develop the country and improve its defence capability by acquiring knowledge in science and technology, there will emerge groups which would oppose such attempts because according to them it is secular and unIslamic and the Government must be overthrown. These people often use Islam as the name for their group in order to legitimise their violent actions. Although they call themselves Muslim Brothers or the Party of Allah or Islamic Party, they do not hesitate to ignore the teachings of Islam by declaring the governments are not Muslim and they are prepared to kill the government leaders and other Muslims in order to prevent the progress which they declare to be secular. 45. Busy with trying to defend themselves from the attacks, from the war by people who have hijacked Islam, the governments of Muslim countries become unable to develop their countries and improve their defense. On Western culture: All Europeans (Here Europeans include those who migrated and set up new nations in America, Australia and New Zealand) have the same origins and culture i.e. based on the Greek and Roman civilisations. They are very clever, brave and have an insatiable curiosity. They are never satisfied with what they have and always want to improve on them, to make them better, more productive for whatever purpose. There is nothing, whether instrument or system or ideology which is not continuously improved by them. Sometimes in their frenzy to improve everything they damage things and bring about bad results. But they are not deterred and they continue to try to improve things which they have or which other people have. Unfortunately they are also very greedy and like to take forcibly the territories and rights of other people. Their 2,000-year history is full of endless wars to seize territories and enlarge their power worldwide. On America's war on terror: If innocent people who died in the attack on Afghanistan and those who have been dying from lack of food and medical care in Iraq are considered collaterals, are the 3,000 who died in New York and the 200 in Bali also just collaterals whose deaths are necessary for operations to succeed? March 2003 Their strategy to fight terrorism is through attacking Muslim countries and Muslims, whether they are guilty or not. June 2003 They made a mistake in Iraq. Now in Iraq, instead of feeling happy and saying thanks to the liberators, they are killing the liberators. October 2003 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Australia: This country stands out like a sore thumb trying to impose its European values in Asia as if it is the good old days when people can shoot aborigines without caring about human rights. December 2002 Australia has made known to the world that it wants to be the deputy sheriff of this region. It's very difficult to get along with deputy sheriffs. October 2003 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Europeans: They are very clever, brave and have an insatiable curiosity... unfortunately they are also very greedy and like to take forcibly the territories and rights of other people. The culture and the values which they will force us to accept will be hedonism, unlimited quest for pleasure, the satisfaction of base desires, particularly sexual desires. Our way of life must be the same as their way of life. Asian values do not exist to them. June 2003 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jews: The Jews for example are not merely hook-nosed, but understand money instinctively. 1970, the Malay Dilemma Later, on the drop in the value of the Malaysian currency: We are Muslims and the Jews are not happy to see Muslims' progress. We may suspect that they have an agenda but we do not want to accuse them... If viewed from Palestine, the Jews have robbed Palestinians of everything but they cannot do this in Malaysia, so they do this. October 1997 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Muslims: Disunited, confused about Islam, fighting each other for power and lacking in essential knowledge and skills... Muslims today have reached the lowest point of their development. January 2003 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On politicians: The British people accept homosexual ministers but if they ever come here bringing their boyfriend along, we will throw them out. November 2001 On Arnold Schwarzenegger's election as governor of California, despite allegations about his past: "I think he had every right to contest. People do not grow up to think that, 'Ah, I'm going to be the next governor and therefore I must deny myself all the pleasures of life'." October 2003 Malaysia, he said, did not have a problem with Islamic militants because it had acted to stop the "teaching of the politics of hatred" in religious schools. "We are very vigilant and know what is happening," he said, adding that the country's tough Internal Security Act had not been passed "just for fun". Dr Mahathir Mohamad told BBC News Online violence had "achieved nothing", for example, for the Palestinians. But he also accused the West of treating all Muslims as "terrorists". thestar.com.my straitstimes.asia1.com.sg