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Politics : Formerly About Advanced Micro Devices -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: tejek who wrote (176837)	10/21/2003 7:16:17 PM
From: TimF	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1571896

Yes, that's what I meant when I said more land for Palestine. "More land for Palestine" could have been achieved by the destruction of Israel but the destruction of Israel was more of the end motive then a way to achieve more land for Israel. Its also quite possible that none of the land gained by the Arab countries in the process of destroying Israel would have been given to the Palestinians. Most likely the land would have been kept under the control of the Arab nations that conquered it. This is what did happen when the Arab armies conquered the West Bank and Gaza. They controlled those areas not some Palestinian organization, authority, or government. However, their complaint that it wasn't defensible was the excuse but the reality is Israel wanted control over Jerusalem. Both where serious motives. Israel wanted Jerusalem but they also needed more then 13 miles. Try to defend a 13 mile wide strip of territory without going on the offence. Even if you are more powerful it is very hard. There is no place on that strip out of artillery and rocket range and I don't think its reasonable to expect a large portion of Israelis to dig in like the Japanese did at Iwo Jima. Yes, very true......the Jews couldn't buy land until after the Ottoman Empire collapsed during WW I. There where quite a number of Jews who lived there and even owned land before WWI. "The First Aliyah (1882 - 1903) The beginning of the modern Jewish return to Eretz Yisrael - the Land of Israel -, which laid the foundations for the establishment of the State of Israel, were due to a combination of three causes: * the age-old devotion of the Jews to their historic homeland, * the wave of pogroms in Russia and * the efforts of an active minority convinced that the Return to the homeland was the only lasting and fundamental solution to the Jewish problem (see Zionism). The First Aliyah consisted of individuals and small groups, mainly under the inspiration of Hibbat Zion and the Bilu movement, who established the early rural settlements - moshavot (see Moshava). Some 25,000 - mostly from East Europe - came during this period. There were two main influxes: in 1882 - 1884 and 1890 - 91. By 1903, the end of the First Aliyah period, 28 new moshavot had been founded, and 90,000 acres of land had been purchased. There was also beginning of urban settlements, especially in Jaffa, where 3,000 newcomers had made their home. Hebrew was beginning to be a spoken language once again (see Eliezer Ben Yehuda ), and the first Hebrew elementary schools had been established -- though French culture, propagated by the Alliance Israelite Universelle and the Rothschild (see Edmond de Rothschild) administration was widespread. On the whole, however, the pioneering drive had been exhausted and a period of stagnation set in. A turning point occurred in 1904 when the Second Aliyah began. The Second Aliyah (1904 - 1914) The depression caused by the stagnation of the first settlements, the controversies in the Zionist Organization over the Uganda Scheme and the death of Herzl in 1904 were followed by a new upsurge of pioneering fervor which produced the Second Aliyah. The first impetus of the new wave came from the Kishinev Pogroms of 1903 and others two years later. The Second Aliyah consisted of young men and women, mainly from Russia, many of them imbued with socialist ideas. These young men and women were guided not only by a more conscious and consistent national ideology, but were also fired by the ideal of laying the foundation for a workers' commonwealth in the Eretz Yisrael. The young pioneers of the Second Aliyah generally worked as hired laborers in the moshavot (see moshava) or the cities. They established the first Jewish labor parties - Po'alei Zion, based on the philosophy of Ber Borochov, and Ha'Poel HaZair, which was influenced by the philosophy of A.D. Gordon. It was also their initiative that led to the establishment of the first kevuzah (see kibbutz). In 1909 they laid the foundation for the first all Jewish City - Tel Aviv. The young pioneers of the Second Aliyah were also active in the beginning of Jewish self defense and established the HaShomer watchmen's association. They introduced Hebrew into all spheres of life and laid the foundation for a new Hebrew press and literature. The influx, which totaled about 40,000, was interrupted by the outbreak of World War I..." jafi.org.il In any case there wasn't a Palestinian nationalist cause until the 20th century either. Yes, because the Zionists were buying up all the land and the buildings in the cities. That galvanized the Palestinians. There wasn't any sense of Palestine as a separate nation, they where just Arabs who happened to live in a certain area, until they where so galvanized. First the Jews chose to go to Palestine....no one forced them. And Palestine has been mostly Arab and Muslim since at least 700 AD. Some of them had been there all along. And there was no other option on the table for them to have their own country. Palestine wasn't very heavily populated at the time. There was room for the waves of Jewish settlers and the Arabs. Secondly, like I said, they only started to own the land since 1920. The Palestinians had owned the land much earlier. Not true. They owned some of the land at least as far back as the late 1800s if not earlier. Thirdly, where is it written that when you get attacked by Syria, Egypt and Jordan, you penalize the Palestinians? They where also attacked by Palestinians. Many of those who didn't actually fight cooperated with the invading Arab armies. Israel was facing a threat to its existence. It would have been foolish to let Arabs control the areas that Israel had just conquered. Also the Arabs that stayed and did not fight Israel have their rights respected more then the people that live in Arab countries. I'm not just talking about Jews who live in Arab countries (who where for the most part abused) but even regular Arabs in the country they where born in. OTOH I agree with the idea of a Palestinian state as a goal. But that goal isn't going to be reached while terrorism is at more then negligible levels. I am not sure what you mean. Actually, I just went back to yours and my previous posts. You appear to think that there was more international land in the partition besides Jerusalem. There was not. The Israelis took land from Gaza, the land between Israel and Jerusalem including E.Jerusalem and they divided Arab land in the north with Lebanon. Again only Jerusalem was to be international. Again I am not and never have been talking about international land. I am talking about land that was given to the local Arabs in the initial partition plan. You have said that you want Israel to go back to its border under the 47 plan. Israel would not only be giving up the West Bank, half of Jerusalem, and Gaza, it would be giving up a big chunk of land that is internationally recognized as part of Israel. Tim