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To: Lane3 who wrote (14220)10/28/2003 4:16:29 PM
From: LindyBill  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 793759
 
I thought posting that Estrich article would stir a lot of comment. I tend to be on the victim's side in this one, but I will stay out of the debate. I end up either "racist" or "Chauvinist," depending on which side I take. Brownstein has a "must read" today on the effects of Dean's lead. He is driving the Dem campaign left and anti-war. And crowding out other issues
___________________________________________

NEWS ANALYSIS

Democratic Presidential Hopefuls Mired in Disagreements Over War
Howard Dean benefits most from the debate. His rivals increasingly oppose Bush's Iraq policy even as they try to play up other issues.
By Ronald Brownstein
Times Staff Writer

October 28, 2003

WASHINGTON — The war over the war in Iraq continues to dominate the Democratic presidential race, strengthening the dynamic that has catapulted former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean from obscurity to the head of the field.

Arguments about the war and its aftermath once again ignited the hottest confrontations at Sunday's Democratic debate in Detroit — just as the dispute has commanded center stage in almost all of the earlier encounters among the White House contenders.

The relentless focus on Iraq, many analysts agree, has benefited Dean by sustaining a spotlight on the issue at the core of his candidacy. And even initial supporters of the war, such as Sens. John F. Kerry of Massachusetts and John Edwards of North Carolina, are being tugged in Dean's direction as they express greater skepticism about President Bush's policy in Iraq.

"The drift has been to accommodate what the other candidates think are the positions that helped Dean prosper," said Will Marshall, president of the Progressive Policy Institute, a centrist Democratic think tank.

Just as important, the continued prominence of Iraq is making it tougher for Dean's rivals to focus attention on other issues that might cause problems for him and undercut his support.

That looms as a particular challenge for Kerry and Rep. Richard A. Gephardt of Missouri. Both men, on the defensive over their votes for the congressional resolution that authorized the war, are now trying to target Dean over statements suggesting he might support cuts in Medicare.

Kerry jabbed Dean on that issue Sunday — but the exchange was almost completely obscured by the crossfire about the war.

"It seems to me we go over the same ground again and again," complained Steve Elmendorf, a senior advisor to Gephardt.

Partly, Iraq has received such a disproportionate share of attention at the debates because media questioners have focused on it.

But aides in several campaigns acknowledge that the candidates have also stressed the issue because it appears to affect voters more than any other issue.

"Iraq is just so head and shoulders above everything else as a cutting issue," said a senior aide to one of the Democrats who supported the war.

At Sunday's debate, Dean accused Kerry of defending "the president's war"; Kerry fired back by questioning Dean's command of foreign policy.

Sen. Joe Lieberman of Connecticut, a war supporter, accused Kerry and Edwards of inconsistency for voting for the war resolution last year but opposing Bush's recent request for $87 billion that would be spent mostly to secure and reconstruct Iraq. Edwards suggested that by voting for the $87 billion, Lieberman gave Bush a "blank check" on the war.

Lieberman also went after another rival, charging that retired Gen. Wesley K. Clark took "six different positions on whether going to war was the right idea."

As striking as the focus on the war was the tone of the discussion. The debate underscored the steady shift in the Democratic field this year toward Dean's skepticism about the war.

Although Lieberman remained unqualified in his support, even Gephardt justified his vote for the $87-billion aid request with a comment that seemed more defensive than confident. "I can't find it within myself to not vote for the money [to] support the troops," he said.

Clark, who expressed more nuanced positions in the period before and during the conflict itself, on Sunday presented himself as an unalloyed opponent of the war from the outset. "I've been against this war from the beginning," he declared. "I was against it last summer. I was against it in the fall. I was against it in the winter. I was against it in the spring. And I'm against it now."

Such sentiments may reflect the widespread belief among Democrats that Bush mishandled both the war and its aftermath by failing to build more support among allies abroad. And it may also reflect the polls showing strong opposition among Democratic voters both to the war itself and to the $87-billion aid request.

"The candidates, because they are out in the world and are talking to people, are hearing that there is grave concern, so naturally they are talking about it," says Wes Boyd, the cofounder of MoveOn.org, a liberal, Internet-based advocacy group.

The tenor of this discussion worries party centrists such as Marshall, who fear that the widening hostility toward Bush's Iraq policy among the candidates will hurt Democrats in the general election. "The effect is to show the Democratic mind in disarray on national security," he said.

The more immediate problem for the Democrats trying to derail Dean is that the continuing focus on Iraq keeps the campaign centered on the issue that has provided the foundation of his strength.

The roar over the war has drowned out the efforts by Gephardt and Kerry to challenge Dean on a key domestic issue. Starting with a speech Gephardt delivered in September, the two have targeted Dean over repeated comments he made indicating support for cutbacks in Medicare during the budget showdown between President Clinton and the Republican congressional majority in the mid-1990s.

Without denying the quotes, Dean has argued that he was looking for ways to stabilize Medicare for the long term, not to retrench it. But Dean threw new fuel on the fire earlier this month, when he said in an Iowa Public Television interview that "We're going to have to limit the growth of entitlement programs."

After immediate criticism from Gephardt and Kerry, Dean issued a statement that "under a Dean administration, cuts to Medicare are off the table." He reiterated that position Sunday. But that inspired the pointed jab from Kerry: "Now, if he just took Social Security and Medicare off the table, the question is, what entitlements are on the table? Veterans' pensions? Food stamps? Medicaid? Social disability?"

Aides to both Kerry and Gephardt say they will amplify their criticisms in the weeks ahead, with Gephardt aides hinting they are likely to highlight the issue in direct mail or television ads.

By targeting Medicare, the two are hoping to expose a potential Dean vulnerability: While the former governor's emphasis on balancing the budget is popular with better-educated and upscale voters also attracted to his antiwar stance, his comments suggesting sympathy for entitlement cuts could be a liability with blue-collar voters.

Still, the continued instability in Iraq makes it difficult for Kerry and Gephardt to make their case.

"It is hard to look at the newspapers today and say this difference on Medicare in 1995 is as important as a difference on how to fight the war on terror and what we should be doing in Iraq," said Republican strategist William Kristol, editor of the Weekly Standard magazine. "Reality has helped Dean. It is the biggest issue facing the next president."

latimes.com



To: Lane3 who wrote (14220)10/28/2003 6:02:03 PM
From: MulhollandDrive  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 793759
 
there is a relatively low conviction rate for rape cases (something approximately 40% if i remember correctly)

if she is worried about the impact of the presumed failure to convict (which is NOT the i read the article, btw, because at the end of the article she seems more concerned about the impact on kobe bryant) but assuming this is indeed her concern i.e. adversely affecting the victim protection law (something i'm not sure i agree with either as it relates to the facilitating of the false rape charge, imo, but that's another discussion entirely ) ....to that i would simply say to estrich, yes it would be nice for you to have tidy cases that do not call the rape shield law into question, but that the ONLY criteria as to whether the charge should be prosecuted is was there according to the prosecutor a credible rape charge presented. i certainly hope her only motivation isn't to further trash the victim (implying she is somehow "undeserving" of the rape shield more because the case in her eyes now is unwinnable, not so much because it doesn't have merit)

to read her article (assuming she isn't in possession of facts not generally known about the case) one might almost conclude that because of the perception that the victim fits the nuts and sluts description, she's coming down on the side of bryant.

it seems like a highly contradictory stance.

all i'm saying is i'm giving the prosecutor and the judge the benefit of the doubt as to whether the alleged crime should have been charged and bound over charge should have been made

I'm guessing that she may be talking about-the Colorado rape victim protection law, which could end up altered by the outcome of this trial.

that's why i was confused by her "bad cases make bad law" statement.

if anything the rape protection law could possibly be strengthened, considering how her name has been so widely disseminated.

bottom line for me here is the charge was made, the court deemed the charge worthy of trial, and it does no good to prejudge the case.

this is what estrich wrote about it in july, before more and more of the case was made public, it is highly unlikely that the young woman wasn't made aware of having her life under a microscope (as estrich describes here)....if anything the fact that she is willing to submit herself to that kind of scrutiny imputes to her believability.

unless of course you believe she lying and making a false charge.

i frankly do not know.

(note that she almost argues for the limiting of the rape shield law when she talks about the potential "one night stand" when she asks "wouldn't you want to know"?... but doesn't quite seem to be able come to terms with the fact the law itself should possibly revisited for that very reason of the false rape charge that i believe she implies in the latest article)

usatoday.com

Posted 7/27/2003 6:58 PM

















Rape shield laws aren't foolproof
By Susan Estrich
Nearly 30 years ago, I sat in the back of a police car as the Boston cops warned me about what would happen to me if I officially reported that I'd just been raped.
"Are you ready to go on trial yourself?" they asked.

"Do you understand what defense lawyers could do to you?" they asked.

I was 20 years old at the time. I thought I was the victim. I didn't understand why my life would be put under a microscope.

There is a 19-year-old woman in Colorado who is just beginning to learn what that kind of scrutiny involves, particularly in a high-profile case. She has accused the Los Angeles Lakers' Kobe Bryant of sexual assault. The anonymity that major news organizations have afforded her will be meaningless by the time this trial is over. In most rape cases, the victims are victimized yet again. The law protects her only up to a point.

It took me less than five minutes at my computer to learn her name, address and phone number. There are reports of her supposed attempted suicide. Her "friends" have been all over the television. Radio host Tom Leykis is using her name. The supermarket tabloid Globe published her picture, with just part of her face obscured. And it is only just beginning.

In the years since I was raped, almost every state in the country, including Colorado, passed rape shield laws to protect victims from a second, unnecessary humiliation. Courts and legislatures redefined the crime to eliminate the requirement that women resist to the utmost to prove non-consent. "No" no longer means "yes" as a matter of law.

But legal reform does not always protect women alleging rape from the defense claim that they're either unstable or promiscuous, and therefore should not be believed when they claim they said "no." The issue today is no longer whether "no" means "yes," but whether she really said "no."

In cases such as this one, in which the key issue is consent and the key question, after all the other evidence is considered, is still who to believe, the defense of choice is increasingly the old standard of attacking a woman's stability — and dragging in her past consensual relationships to at least raise a reasonable doubt as to consent. I have termed it the "nuts and sluts" defense, a new label for one of the oldest tactics in the book. But the fact that our understanding of rape has expanded gives this old and discredited approach new power.

It's easy to argue that a woman's sexual history is irrelevant when a man has a gun or a knife to her throat or, as has been charged in this case, the man uses physical force. What difference does it make how many times you've consented to sex in the past with men who didn't use a threat or force? Who needs psychiatric records in a case involving a stranger when the main issue, now resolvable through DNA evidence, is whether you have the right man?

But imagine for a minute that it was your brother, your son or you who had been charged with rape by a woman after a "one-night stand." Imagine you were Bryant, or you were trying to defend him. Wouldn't you want to know if the woman had a history of one-night stands with other men in similar circumstances — or if, on the other hand, she was a virgin? Wouldn't you want to know if she had a history of mental instability that might lead her to consent to sex and then lie about it?

In the wake of this month's tragic accident at the Santa Monica, Calif., farmers market, the first thing police investigators did was try to determine whether the driver had a history of accidents.

I'm certain Bryant's lawyers have private investigators conducting a similar sort of investigation in the hopes of proving a "pattern" of similar conduct that would allow for an exception to the rape shield law or a challenge to its constitutionality. Even if the evidence is not ultimately admissible in court, it will be in the papers, on television and online in an effort to shape public opinion.

Moreover, in Massachusetts, courts have granted defendants in rape cases qualified access to a victim's psychiatric records, including conversations she has had with rape crisis counselors, concluding that without such access it may be impossible for a man who is wrongly accused to raise reasonable doubt.

The danger, of course, is that guilty defendants will use the threat of humiliation to discourage legitimate victims from reporting sexual assaults. There is a reason that rape continues to be among the least reported of all crimes. At the same time, our criminal justice system is rightly based on the premise that it is better that 10 guilty people go free than one innocent man be convicted.

The challenge of protecting the legitimate victim while ensuring that an innocent man can raise the reasonable doubt required for acquittal requires the sort of careful balancing that sometimes takes place with wise judges in court, but never in media trials and tabloids.

In the 23 years I have worked in this area of the law, countless young women have come to my office seeking advice and counsel about whether to report their victimizations. I always tell them what to expect, that the laws we worked so hard to change will protect them only to a point. I find myself still warning them, in much the same way the police warned me.

I wonder if anyone warned the young woman in Colorado?


Susan Estrich is a syndicated columnist and a member of USA TODAY's board of contributors.