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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Bilow who wrote (117958)10/28/2003 11:21:52 PM
From: stockman_scott  Respond to of 281500
 
Message 19443102



To: Bilow who wrote (117958)10/29/2003 5:34:34 AM
From: frankw1900  Respond to of 281500
 
It would be a hell of a coincidence if this were the case. I would think that if US troops and Iraqi security were taking rounds at the same rate, the casualty rate for the Iraqis would be sky high because of inferior training, vehicles, and personal protection.


I was wrong, their casualty rate if we count from May 1st, is higher.

80 fatalities for about 85000 Iraqi forces. But since the number of Iraqis in forces are increasing the rate must be increasing also.

US forces killed in combat since May 1 are 114

Re: "2. US intelligence is improving and the response to the insurgents is becoming more efficient. US forces are getting support from Iraqis, even in the Tikrit area."

I don't know where you have a source for this. Saddam is still apparently loose. Yesterday marked the bloodiest day in Baghdad since Bush declared the war over. If that is what "more efficient" means, I'd hate to see the alternative.


Source is the article you noted. Ordierno's quoted from the press conference which I also posted. He says getting increasing and better intel from Iraqis. That's either true or not true and given the nature of today's US military guys, I expect it's true.

US combat fatalities have been growing as of late, so your statement that "the insurgents are more often now attacking civilian targets" is only true in the context of a wider insurgency. As far as protecting important targets, we've lost two Lt. Colonels so far this month.

Yes, I had a wider insurgency in mind. I was actually thinking about Tet. It was the attack everywhere simultaneously and create the mass uprising strategy. There was no mass uprising and the US eventually took it to the Viet Cong. It was a military disaster for the Viet Cong. (And a PR disaster for US forces and government because of the intelligence failure).

The analogy to the army of N. Vietnam is the foreign terrorists. The military folk saying that "they are prevailing over the insurgents", yes, but that is in EXACT analogy to what they said during Vietnam. ...

The Mujadeen from outside Iraq aren't going to fill the kind of space the N Vietnam army did. The Iraqis don't particularly like them and there aren't enough of them. The Iraqis will blame them for the Iraqi deaths and eventually kill them.

Ordierno said in the briefing which I posted here last night, that they just weren't picking up very many foreigners (1-5%) but that he expected to see more of them as the Baathists become more desperate. I expect the Baathists will use them as trigger men.

He said he had not yet read the analysis of the Baghdad attacks.

Rumsfeld's leaked memo admitting lack of knowledge, at the highest level in the US government, of whether the number of terrorists is increasing or decreasing.

Maybe REumsfeld doesn't know universally. But the guy on the ground in Iraq probably does know for his sector, right now.

The basic problem is that the insurgents are recruiting from the Iraqi army and security forces. All we do by training those forces is pass on our own troops' advantages to the insurgents. Just because some Arab takes your money doesn't mean that he loves you.

They're recruiting from Saddam's former security forces, I'm sure. It remains to be seen if they are able to recruit significant numbers from the new security forces. So far it appears the new force members are doing their jobs. I'm sure these new forces will have some traitors in their midst but it remains to be seen how great their numbers will be. You expect them to be high and I don't because of the fear and hatred of Saddam.

I said in a discussion with you long before the invasion I didn't expect the Iraqis to welcome the US with open arms. I think I said things like surly or suspicious welcome in the South, outright hostility in Tikrit and geniality in the North.

Sure life is improving for Iraqis. Suppose that we get their economy up to the Saudi level. What do you expect then? It was wealthy Saudis that destroyed the WTC.

Wealthy Saudis with no political headroom. with footless lives, and who are the objects of an ideology which hasn't yet taken enough of a beating. You're quite right to bring up the middle class with respect to Islamist terrorist operatives out of Egypt or Saudi but the middle class of Iraq hasn't had quite the same history and won't necessarily have one like it in the future. There are plenty of useful, meaningful things to do in Iraq, right now and for the forseeable future. The Baathist ideology is taking a beating and is becoming more discredited by the day. Can the Wahabbists and Komeniists fill the void? Perhaps but there's no necessary reason it should happen.

If US losses are more or less equal six months from now, would you admit that the case is hopeless? I doubt it. Instead, you'll be saying that things will be just fine in another year.

The US has invaded a significant country, population @23,000,000, taken it over, with the stated intention of bringing it to modernity. Since the start of the War, until today US combat deaths have been 229, since May 1st combat deaths have been 114. According to the Guardian somewhere between 5 and 7 thousand Iraqi casualties and according to AP about 3200 were caused by the war.
antiwar.com

These are remarkably low numbers considering what has been done. If, in six months the Baathist resistance is clearly on the ebb, Iraq prosperity is increasiing, progress is clearly being made in the political arena, a constitutional conference is getting under way, the Shiites by and large are still tolerating the US presence, the Iraqis are taking over ever more aspects of civil administration, and even if there have been another 114 combat deaths, will you still say it's hopeless?

cnsnews.com

defenselink.mil
(Nobody told me I'd posted a bummy link).



To: Bilow who wrote (117958)10/29/2003 2:01:05 PM
From: Sam  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Arab World Is of Two Minds About U.S. Involvement in Iraq
By NEIL MacFARQUHAR
[Edit: sounds like the Arab world's dilemma described here is similar to the reaction in Europe and the US: People in and out of government say they hope Washington will suffer for its perceived arrogance in taking on Iraq without international approval and for its unequivocal support for Israel. There is also fear that an easy victory might translate into dispatching the American military elsewhere to replace leaders.

On the other hand, many Arabs say they do not want the United States to fail either, fearing that the inevitable chaos would slosh across the entire region. Failure would open the door in Iraq for the kind of war among the sects that plagued Lebanon for 15 years. More important, if Islamic militants carry out attacks and triumph, Islamic extremism could well reignite.

But, personally, I don't see how the situation in Iraq will result in anything but bitterness, murders, and endless reprisals, long term. Even with an elected Iraqi govt will end up being temporary, maybe a year, maybe 3 years--the pretense that a "democratic" govt will solve the problems of Iraq, or even that simply removing Saddam will do so, is a Rovian/Wolfowitz pipedream that will lead to as bad a situation there as post-Tito Yugoslavia, IMHO. The Arabs are right to be fearful, very fearful. Yeah, I know, I'm just a peacenik fearmonger.]

Published: October 29, 2003

AIRO, Oct. 28 — The bright red headline across four columns in an Egyptian government-owned newspaper, Al Gumhuria, on Tuesday trumpeted the latest bombings in Iraq as somehow religiously sanctioned: "Five Consecutive Martyrdom Operations Rock Baghdad."

Yet both Foreign Minister Ahmed Maher and the Arab League condemned the bombings, singling out the attack on the International Committee of the Red Cross as particularly appalling. In Beirut, the respected daily Safir labeled the bombings a "crime," not least because in the paper's view they will serve to prolong the American presence.

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Across the Arab world, opinion toward events in Iraq has taken on a kind of split personality that deepens with each new attack, particularly after gory explosions like those on Monday, which killed dozens of Iraqis and wounded hundreds more.

On one hand, it is rare to find outright support in the Arab world for the United States to succeed. People in and out of government say they hope Washington will suffer for its perceived arrogance in taking on Iraq without international approval and for its unequivocal support for Israel. There is also fear that an easy victory might translate into dispatching the American military elsewhere to replace leaders.

On the other hand, many Arabs say they do not want the United States to fail either, fearing that the inevitable chaos would slosh across the entire region. Failure would open the door in Iraq for the kind of war among the sects that plagued Lebanon for 15 years. More important, if Islamic militants carry out attacks and triumph, Islamic extremism could well reignite.

"The general feeling is that the U.S. put itself in a position that it deserves, it serves them right," said Khaled M. Batarfi, the managing editor of Al Madina, a newspaper published in Jidda, Saudi Arabia. "The U.S. was always saying, we know better, we understand the stakes and everything will be fine.

"But the other feeling is worry that the U.S. might leave without finishing the job first," he went on. "It will be like a jungle."

This quandary has resulted in more paralysis than usual. The latest bombings elicited few public statements from senior officials — although this is also partly because attacks have become so frequent.

Muhammad Kamal, a political science professor at Cairo University, said Arab countries faced a dilemma. "They don't want to leave Iraq, this big Arab country, to the U.S. to shape its future, they don't want the U.S. to do that exclusively," he said. "But they are also reluctant to do anything which might be interpreted as helping the U.S. as an occupier of Iraq."

In addition, the idea that their heads might be on the block next is never very far away from the thoughts of most Arab leaders.

"Iraq is something confusing for the governments here," said Sawsan Shair, a Bahraini columnist. "If the U.S. succeeds in Iraq, so that it really is a democratic country, this is scary for them. If the U.S. fails, on the other hand, what is happening in Iraq will spread, and this is bad for them as well."

Swings in the press coverage reflect the uncertainty. Some papers refer to the attacks against the American forces or the Iraqi police they have trained as "martyrdom operations" implying that they somehow carry the stamp of religious approval as legitimate resistance. Others condemn them.

If there is one element of consensus, it is that the United States failed from the very beginning, when it allowed mobs to loot Iraqi ministries, to provide sufficient security. The only way to dampen the violence now is to hand over sovereignty to the Iraqis under United Nations auspices, or at least to announce a rapid timetable for doing that, according to newspapers and commentators across the region.

"A quick handover of power to the Iraqis is the only way out," wrote Al Akhbar, another Egyptian newspaper run by the government. "What the U.S. administration has forgotten is that all Iraqis, except the traitors and agents, look at the presence of the U.S. forces as an invasion, a colonization and an occupation, despite all that's being said about assistance, reconstruction and the promotion of democracy."

Fighting the United States is not the same as supporting Saddam Hussein, the paper added.

Other voices were also critical, not to say horrified, at the fact that so many of the victims were Iraqis.

"There are borders between resisting occupation and massacring the impoverished, the hopeless who are unfairly accused of serving the occupation when they were simply earning their bread," wrote Talal Salman, the publisher of Al Safir.

There was some outright criticism of the attacks. One Jordanian columnist was particularly aghast that the suicide bombers had used a booby-trapped ambulance to attack a humanitarian organization.

On the streets, too, there was a feeling that the Americans were getting what they deserved, yet sympathy for the victims.

"If the Americans end their occupation and allowed the Iraqis to govern their own country, such explosions would not take place," said Salwa Attiyah, a Cairo accountant.

"It is sad to see those poor Iraqi victims killed," she said. "It is also sad to see the Americans killed every day there."

Whatever their stripe, Arab commentators were completely dismissive of President Bush's remarks that the attacks were being inspired by growing American success.

"Remember how Saddam Hussein talked about winning the mother of all battles?" said Muhsen Awaji, a Saudi Islamist lawyer. "It is the same disease."

nytimes.com