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To: frankw1900 who wrote (14576)10/31/2003 1:31:09 AM
From: LindyBill  Respond to of 793649
 
Here's the truth:

I read a remark that sums it up. The American people will accept casualties as long as they believe progress is being made. If they come to believe we are going nowhere, or backward, then there is a problem.



To: frankw1900 who wrote (14576)10/31/2003 2:29:38 AM
From: LindyBill  Respond to of 793649
 
The Republican goal? If they can't pass it, make sure they can blame the Democrats!
______________________________________________

ANALYSIS
GOP word is out: ‘Get Baucus’
By Bob Cusack "The Hill"

Rep. Bill Thomas (R-Calif.) is closer than he has ever been to enacting Medicare prescription drug legislation. The chairman of the Medicare conference is known for moving controversial legislation through the House – sometimes by the slimmest of margins.

In trying to push a $400 billion Medicare reform bill to the president’s desk, he is facing perhaps his stiffest legislative challenge ever.

Thomas is well aware that most Democrats on the Medicare conference committee will not support any House-Senate deal that is struck. But to enact a Medicare reform bill, Thomas must secure the support of Senate Finance Committee member Max Baucus (D-Mont.).

“If you don’t get Baucus, there will be no deal,” a House GOP aide said.
“[Republicans] have got to get Baucus [on board].”

The aide added, “If they get Baucus, it will be very hard for Republicans to blow this.”

Baucus has worked closely with Senate Finance Committee Chairman Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) on Medicare reform this year. It remains to be seen if Grassley would go along with a bicameral agreement that Baucus opposes.

Baucus has been known to split with his Democratic leaders, and healthcare policy experts are on the edge of their seats to see if he will do it again. In 2001, he voted for Bush’s tax cut, causing strain in his relationship with Senate Minority Leader Thomas Daschle (D-S.D.).

With the stakes high for both parties on Medicare reform, some are speculating that there may be a political price if Baucus breaks again with Daschle.

“It could be the political tipping point,” a healthcare lobbyist said.

Baucus told The Hill last week that there is much work to be done on the bill before he agrees to sign off. He opposes the House’s language on premium support calling for private plans to compete directly with traditional Medicare starting in 2010.

But the dilemma for Thomas is that many House conservatives say they will not vote for a bill unless it includes premium support.

If Baucus signs off on a deal that is opposed by Daschle, some expect Republicans to seek a House floor vote first. This, in theory, would generate momentum and put heat on centrist Senate Democrats to support the compromise bill. Attaining a filibuster-proof 60 votes with this strategy could be within reach.

Getting a Medicare reform bill through the House will be a monumental task, however.

A significant majority of House Democrats is likely to vote against any conference report. Therefore, House Republicans will need to minimize defections and will need to sway reluctant conservatives to vote for a major expansion of Medicare.

The House Medicare bill only passed by one vote in June. Conservative lawmakers who voted for the measure have gone on record saying they will only accept a conference report that includes almost all of the major facets of the House-passed bill.
This demand is unlikely to be met.

Some conservatives who voted for the bill are “having buyers’ remorse,” the Republican aide said.

Rep. Roscoe Bartlett, a conservative Republican from Maryland, said he was on the fence the day of the House floor vote. After talking to House leaders and healthcare experts, he reluctantly supported the bill. When voting for the measure, he was under the false impression that a Medicare conference report could not be filibustered.

If Baucus does not break with Daschle, Thomas could try to pass a Medicare bill with the likely support of Sen. John Breaux (D-La.), who is a Medicare conferee. Thomas and Breaux have the same philosophies on Medicare reform, having worked together for years to revamp the system.

Breaux has been unable to sway his Democratic colleagues to support a new Medicare system that calls for a large role for private insurers.

Therefore, any attempt by Thomas to portray a Medicare deal as bipartisan with Breaux as the only Democrat is likely to fall flat.

Observers say Sen. Edward Kennedy (D-Mass.) has been willing to compromise. To the dismay of some of his colleagues, Kennedy immediately supported the Senate bill that subsequently attracted 76 votes on the floor.

Thomas has praised Kennedy for being willing to compromise to pass controversial bills while criticizing Daschle for playing politics.

While some Republicans believe Kennedy is genuinely interested in a compromise, others are wary. They do not believe Kennedy would back a bill unless Daschle does.

Both Senate lawmakers voted for the Senate bill, and both have signed on to a letter calling for premium support to be scrapped.

One idea that has been floating for months is for a compromise bill to call for a demonstration project on premium support. It is unclear if such a move would appease conservatives.

House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Texas), a Medicare conferee, is expected to court conservatives heavily on a potential Medicare deal.

While other legislators have talked openly about the negotiations, Thomas has kept quiet. Aides say talking about tentative compromises in the press only jeopardizes these agreements.

Thomas has been instrumental in passing Medicare reform bills in 2000, 2002 and this year. He was extremely frustrated with both Sen. Trent Lott (R-Miss.) and Daschle for failing to move companion legislation in 2000 and last year.

“He has been saying ‘Just get me into [a Medicare reform] conference’ for years,” a source said.

If a deal falls through, the public relations battle will go a long way in determining which party is to blame. Republicans could take heat for not passing a bill because they control both Congress and the White House. Democrats may be blamed for thwarting a possible deal through a filibuster
thehill.com



To: frankw1900 who wrote (14576)10/31/2003 11:10:14 AM
From: Sam  Respond to of 793649
 
That is a mostly absurd piece. Just to take a few points:

Thirty-six dead in a series of suicide bombings in Baghdad? The chump change of strategy. Cold-blooded, but true.


Aside from the facts that this is easy to say when its not you or your child being killed and 36 is only 1/10 of the number killed so far, it doesn't begin to address either the justice, the wisdom, or, to be "cold-blooded" about it, the effectiveness of this invasion to actually defeat our real enemies in this war.

* Another American soldier killed in a roadside bombing? Every lost service member matters, but at the present casualty rate it would take 15 years for our dead in Iraq to surpass the number of Americans butchered on 9/11. Better to fight like lions than to die like sheep.

So we're supposed to keep this up until nearly 3000 soldiers are dead? Better to fight intelligently rather than in a place where we don't know the culture, the language, or the customs, where we put our soldiers in a hopelessly confusing and dangerous position of not truly knowing who to arrest or kill, while our real enemies get a propaganda boost from our actions.

* Iraq another Vietnam? Hell, even Vietnam wasn't the Vietnam of left-wing baby-talk politics and campus political astrology. Our Vietnamese enemies represented a mass movement. The Iraqi terrorists represent a small, bloodthirsty movement to oppress the masses.

OK, fair enough that "our enemies" in Vietnam represented a true nationalist movement of freedom fighters (to use the term that the right wing loves so much) struggling to free their country from colonialists (first the French and then, from the Vietnamese POV, their proxies, the Americans and the maybe 10-15% of the Vietnamese who supported and benefitted from them). I question whether we have the wherewithal to actually kill or pacify our opponents in Iraq at an acceptable cost as well as conduct the war that we should be conducting against Al Qaeda.

* Did Operation Iraqi Freedom create terrorists? No. It terrorized the terrorists. Now it's flushing them out of their hiding places. We'll be killing and capturing them for years. But that's the only approach that works.

Nonsense. We won't only "be killing and capturing them for years," our approach guarantees that we'll be creating new ones as well. If we are "flushing them out of their hiding places," why can't we find them? It is mystifying how we are "terrorizing" them, as their attacks have just increased over the past 4 months. Our casualties in Vietnam until 1965 were pretty small too. And that was 4-12 years into the war, depending on how you count it. He is advocating a "kill the flea" approach--if it lands on you, swat it and kill it, get rid of it. This belief that this is "the only approach that works" is nonsense, it is a pretense, it won't work in the long run, because we won't and can't kill enough of "them".

* Has the War on Terror made Americans less safe? Despite the dishonest claims of Democratic presidential hopefuls, the answer is an unequivocal "No!" Where is the evidence that we're in greater danger now? Where are the terrorist attacks on our cities?

In this war, the only measurement that matters is the absence of attacks. Since 9/11, our government has taken the war to the terrorists and kept us remarkably safe.


The attacks of Al Qaeda have, so far at least, generally come years apart. It is certainly true that we have made some headway against them, jailing or killing many of their leaders. The problem is when their leaders are killed, others step in. It is the proverbial "hydra". Once could have said for a couple of years after the first WTC bombing in '93, gee there haven't been any bombings, we must be safe now, kudos for our government. At least until the embassy bombings of '97 (I may have the year wrong there, but it was years after the WTC truck bomb.) Sure, we've disrupted them. But we haven't eliminated them, and have depended on intelligence and aid from foreign sources to do as much as we have done. But our actions in Iraq has helped to alienate the very sources that have been required to make the headway we have made against Al Qaeda. This invasion has been counter productive, not helpful.

*The proof of our success in this war is the undisturbed routine of our daily lives.


That can always be said. Human beings are resilient. One could also say that the WTC destruction has been used by the admin to do things that they wanted to do anyway, the threat to our daily lives has been exaggerated for this purpose. It was one attack, albeit a spectacular one. OK, you could say it was four attacks, I suppose. But one plan, one day--the DC sniper didn't kill more people but caused more havoc to the daily routines of people in the DC area. Neither I nor other opponents of the Iraqi action are saying the Al Qaeda and extremist Islam doesn't represent a threat--we dispute the belief that the Iraqi invasion has served to lessen that threat.

* How long can the Iraqi terrorists maintain this pace of attacks? We don't know. The Iraqi terrorists themselves don't know. But we should be encouraged, not discouraged, that the best they can do is to ram a few suicide wagons into public buildings. They're not overrunning our troops. They're desperately scraping up all the suicide drivers they can. It's only surprising that they've been able to find so few.

Of course they're not "overrunning our troops." They couldn't even begin to do that, and that isn't their strategy. We are where they live. It is us that don't belong there. It is us who has somewhere else to go when we get tired of this BS. They don't. "It's only surprising that they've been able to find so few [suicide bombers]"--one of the more ridiculous statements he made, as if it is ever "easy" to find suicide bombers. "We should be encouraged, not discouraged"--a nice cheerleading thing to say, but gives the previous comment a run for the money for being ridiculous. It might have merit if the number and sophistication of the attacks were on a downward slope. But the opposite is true. And we continue to piss Iraqi's off. We show absolutely no insight into the real situation on the ground. If you needed any proof of this, just reflect a moment on the "troops in Turkey" fiasco. We go and bribe the Turks into sending troops, without for a moment realizing that almost no one in Iraq wanted them there. Even our own puppet govt told us so in advance, but we persisted. Then after the Turkish govt finally agreed to send 10,000 troops in (against the wishes the overwhelming majority of their own people!), the IRC voted unanimous against accepting them. The Bremer crew scratched their heads in disbelief. But somehow Bush supporters still believe that Bremer's crew and the Bush admin know what they're doing, know what's happening over there. Sure they know how to build schools and bridges--but they don't know have a clue what goes on in the schools or where the bridges are leading. The Turkey business is only the latest of fantasy gaffes which began by believing Chalabi, and believing that this guy could come back to Iraq after a 40 year absence and be coronated King, oops, I mean elected President. Sure he can do neocon speak ok, but what does that have to do with the Iraqi people?! Do the neocons think that they are as sheeplike as many Americans appear to be?

* Do the Iraqi people support the terrorists? No. The Iraqi people just want to live in peace - without Saddam. They don't want our troops to stay forever, but few want us to leave tomorrow. The terror attacks will keep reminding them why they don't want the old regime back. What should we expect in Iraq? Imperfect results. It's an imperfect world. But even a partial success in establishing basic human rights, the rule of law and some form of democracy would be an unprecedented triumph in the region.

Well, he's certainly right in saying that we will get "imperfect results." The question of course is, how imperfect? He thinks the situation can be made bearable. I think that we have set the country up for years of civil war at best. Sure, maybe it'll be off and on. Maybe it will simmer for awhile, then explode, then simmer again. But there is so much deepseated hatred there, so many long standing antipathies and conflicting agendas, it is nearly inevitable, just as our own Civil War over slavery was nearly inevitable. It's building now. If a lot of Iraqi people didn't support Saddam and the "terrorists," we would be catching more of them, they wouldn't be able to hide. As it is, most of them get away. Sure some get caught. But plenty don't. It's a big country, apparently with more weapons per capita than I ever dreamed. The anti-US crowd doesn't require majority support, just a good sized minority in that environment will do the trick.

* Why are so few nations willing to help us? Because many political leaders want us to fail. Because the United States has returned to its original ideals, supporting freedom, self-determination, the rights of the individual and simple human decency.

Why hasn't it struck those who make this argument as odd that, if indeed the US is in this for idealistic reasons, very few other countries agree. Do the proponents of this view really believe that if countries and peoples around the world thought that this was a just war, they would be criticizing the US? Was there criticism of the US after Afghanistan was bombed? Is the US so utterly inept in PR that they can't even make a strong case against an obvious dictator like Saddam?

Our example terrifies every one of Iraq's neighboring governments and infuriates the Europeans - who long profited from their political love affairs with dictators, even as they damned America for similar behavior.


The US has "long profited from their political love affairs with dictators" too. The only real reasons Saddam was chosen were because he pissed off Bush Jr., oil, his country is potentially extremely wealthy (generating those seductive neocon fantasies that the war would be self-financing), and he was threatening to use the Euro instead of the dollar to price his oil, thus attacking the US dollar.



To: frankw1900 who wrote (14576)10/31/2003 11:43:26 AM
From: Sam  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 793649
 
U.S. Troops Clash With Rioters in Baghdad

By SAMEER N. YACOUB, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - American troops clashed with rioters carrying Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s picture in a Baghdad suburb Friday, and heavy smoke billowed from the mayor's office in a city west of the capital following a big explosion.

In northern Iraq (news - web sites), American troops sealed off the village where Saddam was born and began issuing identity cards to the villagers to determine who can move in and out.

There were conflicting claims about what triggered the clash at Abu Ghraib, a suburb on the western side of the capital. Iraqis said it broke out when U.S. troops tried to clear market stalls from a main road. But a U.S. officer at the scene, 1st Lt. Joseph Harrison, said it began with a grenade attack against American soldiers that left two of them wounded.

Youths began throwing stones at troops and Iraqi police and set tires ablaze. Protesters carried Saddam's picture and shouted "Allahu Akbar," or "God is great."

After a three-hour interlude, gunfire erupted again as helicopters hovered overhead and U.S. armored vehicles moved into the area to control the crowd after hundreds of Iraqis emerged from Friday prayers.

Machine gunfire and 10 explosions were heard, and fleeing civilians said the U.S. troops had "come under attack." A photographer on the scene saw several civilian casualties being evacuated. Within a half hour the gunshots subsided.

Later, mortars fell on an Iraqi police station near the market. The Americans said they arrested two Iraqis carrying a mortar firing tube.

In Fallujah, a center of Sunni Muslim resistance 40 miles west of the capital, a strong explosion rocked the center of the city at midday. Heavy, black smoke could be seen billowing from the mayor's office.

Police said that following the explosion, residents shouted at the authorities that their neighborhood had become a target because the U.S.-appointed mayor and other officials worked there. Civil defense officer Ahmed Khalil said police shot and killed a resident during the ensuing argument.

Later, residents angered by the police action broke into the smoldering building and looted the mayor's office. They eventually dispersed when U.S. Humvees arrived with helicopters patrolling overhead.

An upsurge of attacks this week, coinciding with the start of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, has killed scores of people, most of them Iraqis in a series of vehicle bombings in Baghdad on Monday. The upsurge prompted the international Red Cross and the United Nations (news - web sites) to remove foreign staff temporarily.

But on Friday, the European Union (news - web sites)'s head office in Brussels, Belgium, said it would not pull its humanitarian aid workers out of Iraq. EU spokesman Diego Ojeda said the current team of about 10 aid workers from the EU's humanitarian aid office would continue its work in Baghdad.

U.S. officials have variously blamed the violence on Saddam loyalists and Islamic extremists. The New York Times reported Friday that three senior American officials believe Saddam is actively planning and coordinating some of the attacks.

Defense, intelligence and national security officials sought Friday to minimize that possibility, however. Discussing the situation only on grounds of anonymity, they said some Iraqis have been asserting for several months that Saddam is involved. But these officials said they are not certain how reliable the information is and said there are no radio intercepts or other types of evidence to corroborate the reports.

American soldiers moved before dawn Friday to seal off Uja, the village where Saddam was born, surrounding it with razor wire and setting up checkpoints at the exits. They ordered all adults to register for identity cards in the village about 95 miles north of the capital.

"This is an effort to protect the majority of the population, the people who want to get on with their lives," said Lt. Col. Steve Russell, a battalion commander in the 4th Infantry Division. The village is the family home of many former Baathist regime members.

Elsewhere, insurgents mounted attacks on U.S. and Iraqi government targets in the northern city of Mosul, U.S. officers said Friday. There were no injuries in the overnight shelling of a U.S. base near Mosul, the explosion of a roadside bomb near a U.S. foot patrol on the city's outskirts, or in an attack by unidentified gunmen who sprayed Mosul's city hall with automatic fire, they said.

Those skirmishes came after a bomb exploded late Thursday near a military police convoy in northern Baghdad, wounding two Americans.

In Baghdad's neighborhood of Salhiya, Iraqi police and U.S. troops on Friday blocked a major street after residents informed authorities about a car parked under a pedestrian bridge, fearing it was booby-trapped. Bomb experts checked a white Mitsubishi parked a few hundred yards from the U.S. occupation authorities' headquarters zone.

___

Associated Press corespondents Katarina Kratovac in Tikrit, Bassem Mroue in Fallujah, Sameer N. Yacoub in Abu Ghraib and Mariam Fam in Mosul contributed to this report.

news.yahoo.com