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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Jacob Snyder who wrote (118666)	11/5/2003 7:01:22 PM
From: FaultLine	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Hello Jacob, To: Faultline, Win, NeoCon, Ish, jerry, Nadine: We cannot discuss most Foreign Affairs, if anti-semitism and anti-Zionism are equated. Very nice post, Jacob. Thanks and I'll think over your suggestions. --fl

To: Jacob Snyder who wrote (118666)	11/5/2003 9:25:18 PM
From: Win Smith	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Win: whenever you make any anti-Zionist statement, you have to understand it will be misunderstood by many as anti-semitism. So: make it explicit, with examples, in detail, that you are criticising a political movement, not a religion or race. You will still be misunderstood, but just keep giving details and examples of the difference. Ok. Where, exactly, did I make an "anti-Zionitst" statement? What I posted, precisely, in #reply-19469297 , was this: *During the first Intifada "the rate of incarceration in the territories [OT] was by far the highest known anywhere in the world: close to 1,000 prisoners per 100,000 population, or one prisoner for every 100 persons" (Middle East Watch, 1991.). One would be hard-pressed to find a Palestinian from the West Bank and Gaza who has not had a friend or relative in an Israeli prison at some point. By 1987, almost 20% of Palestinians in the Israeli occupied territories had been subjected to detention. (Lisa Hajjar, Authority, Resistance and the Law: A Study of the Israeli Military Court System in the Occupied Territories, Ph.D. dissertation, Department of Sociology, The American University, 1995, p. 612.). The Israeli human rights organization, B'Tselem, estimates that 85% of all Palestinian prisoners and detainees were tortured during their incarceration. (B'Tselem, Routine Torture: Interrogation Methods of the General Security Service, B'Tselem, Jerusalem, 1998, p.8.). Interviews conducted between 1988 and May 1992 with more than 700 Palestinians indicate that at least 94% of those interrogated by the GSS were tortured. (Melissa Phillips, Torture for Security: The Systematic Torture and Ill-treatment of Palestinians in Israel. Al Haq Ramallah, West Bank,: 1995. ) (from dci-pal.org ) That seems explicit and detailed enough, though I did follow with a couple acerbic sentences of my own: You may, of course, reply with the official Israeli government version of these numbers if you like. A philosophical question: Was the amount of "moderate physical pressure" used by the Israeli occupation forces over the past 36-odd years too little, or too much, in terms of generating Palestinian hatred? Or was it just the right amount? What followed was lord knows how many posts full of personal attacks and rants about "leftist sources" and the other usual "facts and logic" that neocons pride themselves on. Israel can do what it wants, I just wish the architects of the Iraq war had taken a little closer look at the Israeli experience with the corrosive effects of military occupation in the West Bank, Gaza, and Lebanon. Of course, as near as I can tell, the architects of the Iraq war thought they'd have Chalabi all set up and the troops withdrawing by now, but again that's another area where Israeli history might have impinged on their fantasies a bit.