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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: one_less who wrote (78808)	11/8/2003 8:17:13 AM
From: Lane3	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 82486

I definitely agree that there are fates worse than death. Is it suicide to stand up and defy an injustice knowing it means almost sure death to you? If so, that would be a form of choice to die that I would endorse. If you stand by these statements, then you and I are coming from the same place. We may disagree in the particulars of certain scenarios and how we might implement the two premises above, but we both recognize that there are worse things than death and that it can be OK to choose death. What I was objecting to was your hyperbolic statement that I WANTED TO KILL LAME CHILDREN. That sounds like I would snatch children born with club feet from their cribs and toss them in the gas chamber. That's ugly. All I was doing was expressing my versions of potential implementations of the above two premises. Just as you would be thoughtful about how to implement them, so would I. I realize that you don't trust that I would be thoughtful, but I would. You may not agree with the particulars of my determinations, but there is no basis for making outlandish projections regarding my potential implementations given we are in agreement on the basic premises.

To: one_less who wrote (78808)	11/8/2003 1:05:43 PM
From: Solon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

"The fear of the unknown is what makes most people fear death" It is commonly put like that. I would rather say it is the certainty (or reasonable certainty) of extinction justaposed against the love of sensual experience. Of course, as age and infirmity increase the ratio of suffering to happiness, we are more willing to tolerate death. Eventually (if we live long enough)--we embrace it. "People who don't fear death are the ones most likely to commit noble acts" I don't know that I would put any emphasis on that. Any moron can be unafraid. It takes no measure of nobility to be stupid. Indeed, we measure the sense of nobility in noting that the person has SACRIFICED an extreme value--her precious life which is one of a kind and never to be again--in order to honour someone or something which she values even more than that. The greater the fear of the alternative...the greater the sacrifice. It is of little nobility (IMO) if one merely gives up that which is (to him) of transient value--(his earth booties). Now if he gave up his "soul" (as atheists are by analogy doing when THEY sacrifice for humanity)--now that would be nobility! Again, the willingness to sacrifice self relates to how much value one attaches to oneself. Often a person feels they have nothing to gain in an existence miserably lived, and are encouraged at the opportunity to redeem themselves by one "noble" act of self sacrifice. Of course, the mere act of sacrifice carries no nobility. The value they are acting to preserve must be in the interest of humanity and not a psychopathic vision. For instance the crazed maniac who takes out his wife and innocent children before blowing his head off may or may not fear death. What is certain is that he fears life. In hindsight one would regret having talked him out of suicide 6 months before. But hindsight does not allow us to change the past--only the future..and I suppose that is a good thing. "I suspect your references to fate worse than death were something more along the lines of torture." I don't mean to limit it in any way. It is up to the individual to decide--not for others in society who might wish to interfere, meddle, or impose. For one it might be staying married to a virago rather than stooping to beg the Pope for a release. For another it might be the embarrassment of being exposed in a criminal act, or being outed for a perceived character defect. It could be anything; but for stable people with a modicum of self-esteem, it is likely to involve suffering that may not likely be alleviated in any manner and is a probable precursor to being dealt the hand of death. And as we know--suffering, like all emotions, is relative. One can spend days or years of mental anguish over giving in to a shop-lifting urge. Another (like Ted Bundy) feels no pain for the vicious murder of innocent others: He can whistle at agony like he was shelling peas for supper. So there are lots of fates worth than death--Unfortunately, people like Bundy too seldom experience them... I share with you, btw, in desiring that troubled people be assisted past their despair and encouraged to heal and to find happiness. I do not question that suicide is often a reckless choice and a tragic one. I simply insist on the right to my own life and death--provided I do no harm to others--and I grant others the same respect. I'm away for the day. Have a good one...