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To: zonder who wrote (266555)	11/10/2003 1:21:32 PM
From: E. T.	Respond to of 436258

Hold on, some of us have been saying since the gulf war that saddam should be deposed and were critical of papa bush for not finishing the job, as most Iraqis expected and wanted the U.S. president to do. Simply because there's been a passage of time doesn't make Saddam less accountable for his murderous deeds. While you say he was buddy buddy with the U.S. during the 80s, Saddam has had an extremely cozy relationship with France since before 1973, yet that's okay. UN sanctions in the 90s caused the Iraqi people much suffering, all the while, France played oil broker (elfFina) for Saddam, lining his pockets with what should have been public money. Also, your support of the status quo in Iraq would have meant the continuation of sanctions that you have pointed out were causing much grief. Saddam would still be in power, the torture chambers that existed in almost every non-baathist town would still be operational and the unmarked graveyards would have continued to grow. How often in history has war ever been truly justified? Rarely, I'd say. But Saddam's regime was a corrupt one and is now gone and in the end Iraq will be better off because of it. Your alternative proposal is what, to do nothing? I may not agree with Bush jr. and I myself might not have gone to war, but the deed has been done and now we must carry on. Hopefully Iraq will emerge as a great country, that respects human rights.

To: zonder who wrote (266555)	11/10/2003 1:43:42 PM
From: benwood	Respond to of 436258

That, plus the cost of the war, though this next fiscal year only, will exceed the estimate I read of the cost to refurbish as needed all primary and secondary school structures in the US (80-odd billion dollars).

To: zonder who wrote (266555)	11/10/2003 3:34:20 PM
From: Knighty Tin	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 436258

Z, I think the several decades effort of right wingers to destroy our educational system is paying dividends and today's generation of voters simply are not capable of connecting the dots. So, we may have returned permanently to a nastier, rougher nation. Sort of the opposite of the real Bush's "Kinder, gentler."

To: zonder who wrote (266555)	11/10/2003 3:40:58 PM
From: j-at-home	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 436258

one concern is if any thing "goes off" in the US between now and the election .. they've pitched a shutout so far in the West but if something goes off I'm afraid that would buoy Bush and get that fool re-elected and keep his neocon cronies in power forever .. well for four more years anyway .. "star patches" may come into vogue

To: zonder who wrote (266555)	11/11/2003 6:35:01 AM
From: E. T.	Respond to of 436258

In Falluja, and places like it across the Sunni Muslim heartland of central Iraq, Saddam Hussein had so decimated the natural social hierarchy, Iraqis say, that no group could fill the political vacuum left by his ouster. "We miss the support that the government used to give," said Sheik Khamis, lighting up a Pleasure brand cigarette and recalling the days when no one in power expected him to actually lead his tribesmen. "Now it's the state that's coming to us for support." In their day, imperial powers like the Ottoman Turks and the British used to manage this unruly region by co-opting the tribes, keeping them occupied with internal rivalries or buying their loyalty with land. Iraq's newest foreign occupiers are trying the same formula, but the ingredients are different, producing inconclusive results. Under Mr. Hussein, tribal leaders became an extension of the all-powerful Baath Party, rendering them irrelevant in the eyes of many of their followers. In the 1990's, Mr. Hussein further undercut tribal authority with his "faith campaign," which placed a new class of militant Sunni clerics above the tribes in the social and political mix, residents here say. Since Baghdad fell in April, five different American commanders have tried to tame Falluja, a rough and tumble city of 450,000 people that lived almost exclusively off the patronage of Mr. Hussein's government. Nearly every day, bombs explode near American convoys, rocket-propelled grenades are fired at American patrols or soldiers raid the houses of suspected insurgents. On Nov. 2, a rocket fired from the outskirts of Falluja brought down a Chinook helicopter, killing 16 soldiers on board. To judge by the look of Falluja, the violent opposition still has the upper hand. The main streets display neatly written banners urging people to kill "traitors" and Americans. The police station, where officers are paid and supervised by American soldiers, is reinforced against attack with sandbags and barbed wire. City Hall, where the American-appointed mayor sits, has been hit repeatedly with rocket-propelled grenades. Yet the newest American commander is confident he has found the right combination of military force, persuasion and promise of a brighter future to pacify Falluja. "What we offer is this," said Lt. Col. Brian M. Drinkwine, of the 82nd Airborne Division, who took charge two months ago. "If Falluja and the surrounding area are safe, then the coalition and the international community would invest here." The colonel and his men operate from trailers on the southern outskirts of the city, among the bleak remnants of an old holiday camp. They frequently invite clerics and tribal leaders over for chats about the disadvantages of allowing attacks to continue. Sometimes they also make the point more forcefully. After American convoys encountered homemade explosives on roads running through Sheik Khamis's land, soldiers turned up on his doorstep and demanded to search his home for weapons. The sheik was delighted. "When they came to my house, honestly I was happy," he recalled. "It's kind of a cover for me because some people were calling me a traitor for supporting the Americans. It actually helped me." Colonel Drinkwine has also dangled financial incentives, spending thousands of dollars to fix some schools and a hospital. Not everyone was impressed. nytimes.com