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Politics : Formerly About Advanced Micro Devices -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Road Walker who wrote (178146)	11/18/2003 9:14:30 AM
From: Alighieri	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1575841

But if you start saying that we are defending ourselves from Muslim evangelism, I don't think too many are going to take you seriously. I agreed with what you said until the above....sadly the statement above does not reflect reality. Most folks react to superficial "good/evil" exhortations...however one may agree or not agree with your introspection, the truth is that too many people do not follow your careful lead. Al

To: Road Walker who wrote (178146)	11/18/2003 9:55:30 AM
From: brian1501	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 1575841

Bull crap. We are trying to export our culture to their region. Do you see them trying to make the US a Muslim religious state!?! Take a moment and think about it, assuming that was their intent, what are the odds of that happening? Bull crap right back at you. Are we forcing them to sit in theaters and watch movies? Listen to our music? Remember the demands that Bin Laden issued not that long ago? One of them was that we all "embrace" Islam. Odds of it happening have nothing to do with it. We are not dealing with rational people. You don't get killed over here for trying to convert someone to Islam. Try to convert someone to Christianity over there at your own risk. Brian

To: Road Walker who wrote (178146)	11/18/2003 12:34:57 PM
From: Jim McMannis	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1575841

RE:"We are trying to export our culture to their region" Just how are we doing that? Just how many Muslims are moving to Western countries vs how many Westerners are moving to Muslim countries? Maybe you are more isolationist than I first thought. Stay isolated? Send the millions of Muslims in the US and Canada back to wherever they came from?

To: Road Walker who wrote (178146)	11/18/2003 1:20:06 PM
From: Tenchusatsu	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 1575841

JF, We are trying to export our culture to their region. No, we are not trying to export anything, other than Western-style democracies and only to replace those regimes we took out. And we only bothered to take them out after 9/11 because of our security, whether you agreed to it or not. In any case, all we want is their oil and their cooperation. We could care less what their people want to do with their own lives, as long as we're happy in our own paradise. The truth is that they are importing our culture, and that's shocking the conservatives and extremists. Many Arabs equate Western ideals of capitalism with success. They see how Asian nations like Japan, Taiwan, Korea, and even China are adopting those ideals, and they too want a piece of the action. In the process, they also import Western pop culture, complete with its hedonism and materialism. And of course, they open the doors to Christian missionaries and Judeo-Christian ideals, such as collecting interest on loans (which isn't permitted under Islam). All of this is going to be rather uncomfortable to the religious leaders and conservatives over there. And this is happening even in the midst of our apathy, regardless of our thirst for oil. Do you see them trying to make the US a Muslim religious state!?! Take a moment and think about it, assuming that was their intent, what are the odds of that happening? Right now, if you gave the Middle East the wealth of the United States, they WILL convert the Western world. Islam is indeed a highly evangelical religion, much like Christianity. Of course, liberals are trying to make America a religion-free zone with some degree of success. No one in the Middle East is trying to cripple Islam with such liberalism (heh, just TRY and get Allah out of the public arena over there). Of course, the Middle East doesn't have that wealth, but the conservatives and the extremists definitely want it. And many will take whatever means necessary to build up power and influence in this world. Look at the regimes of the Taliban and Saddam Hussein if you think they'll just stop at their own borders. Look at India, Pakistan, and North Korea if you don't believe that having a nuke changes the whole game. Look at 9/11 if you think you can contain these extremists with the threat of mutual annihilation. The Arabs are hard wired with pride and very deep and intricate cultural and religious traditions. No kidding. So are we. But if you start saying that we are defending ourselves from Muslim evangelism, I don't think too many are going to take you seriously. Obviously not, which is why we'll never understand why they're reacting this way and why the Middle East isn't trying to clean its own house. Liberals and conservatives here in America are trying to solve this via secular means. Liberals think socialism and appeasement will save the Middle East; conservatives think capitalism and brute force will tame the Middle East. Everyone misses the mark. Though I tend to take the conservative side, I recognize its shortcomings, especially in Iraq, which is why I'm all for an exit strategy that involves the U.N. I'm sure on this you'll agree as well. But I hope I've convinced you that the problem cannot be explained away with the same secular arguments that atheist intellectuals use to explain away Christianity and other religions. Tenchusatsu

To: Road Walker who wrote (178146)	11/18/2003 4:58:46 PM
From: tejek	Respond to of 1575841

You are seeing a gray world in black and white relief, and that's dangerous. We are the ones imposing, they are reacting. John, great observation. The conservative paradigm seems to work only in black and white; they rarely see the gray. A whole different argument can be made that it's necessary to be politically active in the region to secure our flow of oil. But to do that, you have to admit that this is economic and selfish, that "it's all about the oil". There you can find justification; right or wrong is another argument. But if you start saying that we are defending ourselves from Muslim evangelism, I don't think too many are going to take you seriously. The conservatives would take Ten very seriously. From this thread, I have learned two groups can be shown the very same picture and problem, and come away with two very different and opposite conclusions. I think conservatives see the rest of the world as aggressively imposing itself upon us......from illegal and legal immigration to the dilution of the predominate race and the Christian religions to threatening our security and well being. They can't possibly imagine that our culture, our ongoing manifest destiny, our striving for supremacy in all that counts poses a big threat to the rest of the world. Instead, their paranoia heightens their concerns and looks for more aggressive solutions to what they perceive as the problem...........and their solutions are monolithic. I firmly believe McMannis thinks that if the illegals stop coming to FLA, then everything will be right in that state. Illegals may be part of the problem but they are not the entire problem. The whole thing is fukked and I am unclear how these differences are ameliorated. ted

To: Road Walker who wrote (178146)	11/19/2003 7:43:57 PM
From: TimF	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 1575841

We are trying to export our culture to their region. Do you see them trying to make the US a Muslim religious state!?! Take a moment and think about it, assuming that was their intent, what are the odds of that happening? Islam is expanding in western states more then Christianity is expanding in Islamic countries. ou are seeing a gray world in black and white relief, and that's dangerous. We are the ones imposing, they are reacting. In Iraq perhaps but not in general. If western culture is becoming more influential it is not an imposition it is the choice of the people who choose to partake in certain aspects of western culture. Tim