Good post Alan - I tend very strongly to agree with
your basic view of what is being stated in Acts 1:9-11
and totally agree with your synopsis of the problem :-)
I noticed you quoted from Rotherham's version and so will I:
Acts 1:9-11
9 And saying these things, while they are looking, He was lifted up,
and a cloud took Him up from their eyes.
10 And as they were looking intently into heaven at His going, lo !
two men stand beside them in white attire,
11 who say also, "Men! Galileans! Why do you stand, looking into heaven?
This Jesus Who is being taken up from you into heaven shall come thus,
in the manner in which you gaze at Him going into heaven."
There are basically two groups of understanding concerning the phrase:
IN LIKE MANNER
The big question is… IN LIKE MANNER TO WHAT ?
Group 1. in like manner to His physical resurrected body
Group 2. in like manner to His being within a cloud.
Group 1. believes Christ will never shed His physical resurrected body
Group 2. believes He returns to glorified incorruptible heavenly body (some say spirit being)
I can see from your response that you fit squarely into group 2.
There is however a group 3
Group 3. while 'in like manner' does refer to His coming in clouds
there is nothing ( or too little ) to suggest
that Christ actually shed His physical body.
While I agree it is not possible to prove from that verse that Christ did
in fact change in being when received by the cloud - yet….
there is nothing to prove He was unchanged either and I think
something significant is being taught other than the very common
idea that Christ would return physically to stand upon the earth again.
Other verses also more easily fit our understanding than any other:
1. In Acts Christ appears to Paul in a glorified state rather than a physical state.
A blinding brilliance !! (you already mentioned this as well)
2. John describes how he saw Christ in heaven when taken up in Revelation - hardly the description
of what Christ would have looked like during His 40 year visitations after the cross.
3. John - when writing one of his letters said it was not yet manifest
at that time what Christ was now like:
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God,
and it doth not yet appear what we shall be:
but we know that, when he shall appear,
we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
According to John in that epistle we are to be "like Him" not
different in our eternal state but John did not yet know what that was to be like.
Does not sound to me like Christ merely kept His resurrected physical body at all.
Yet Christ, after the ascension has some form of ‘body’ be it physical or spiritual:
Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Also, many believe that at the second coming Christ was to reign on earth in a physical body.
That is so unscriptural it pains to even bother addressing such foolishness.
Surely Zechariah would pain at what these hyper-literalists of our day do to his visions.
Acts teaches that Christ was already upon the throne of David
in Peter's day and that the outpouring of the Holy Ghost
and Apostolic gifts were proof of that FACT !!
Acts 2:30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him,
that of the fruit of his loins he would set one upon his throne; (David's Throne - BV)
31 he foreseeing this spake of the resurrection of the Christ,
that neither was he left unto Hades,
nor did his flesh see corruption.
If the apostle Peter can not correctly interpret scripture
then who can?
Peter said concerning the throne of David - that David spoke
of the resurrected state - not an earthly state - Peter said this of David's throne:
Acts 2:32 This Jesus did God raise up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted,
and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit,
he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.
(tongues and gifts were a sign of Christ being enthroned in heaven - BV)
The other fault with 'in like manner' referring to Christ setting
Himself down upon the earth when He returned were the very words of Paul
1 Thessalonians 4:17 then we that are alive, that are left, (those alive when this was written – BV)
shall together with them be caught up in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
That verse says that the dead in Christ were raised first
and then those that managed to stay alive until He came
-BUT-
it says nothing of any of them ever being upon planet earth again
- including Our Lord and Saviour.
They went UP to heaven to be with Him - Christ did not come DOWN to be with them.
so shall we ever be with the Lord.
leaves no room for the whole troop to come back to earth for a millennial reign on earth.
You Alan also mentioned all of this.
Now all of those who remained were changed - but so were those who
had been placed in the graves and saw corruption – be it David or Stephen:
Acts 2:29 Brethren, I may say unto you freely of the patriarch David,
that he both died and was buried,(and rotted - BV)
and his tomb is with us unto this day.
(Peter was proving David did not speak of himself because they all
knew David rotted or 'saw corruption bodily')
So I have to say that other than the timing of the second coming -
we are in total agreement except perhaps the concept of a 'body'.
I believe we will have bodies - but that they will not be physical in nature.
(some say a man is damned for believing this – surely they would know?)
but I get this from the heavenly visions of Revelation as well as Paul's
explanations in 1Cor15 - even angels have bodily form in heaven.
Revelation 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true:
and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel
to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them.
And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to
worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not:
for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets,
and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
I believe that the "angel" mentioned is not an earthly messenger
in that verse but rather an angel from heaven
(I also believe John was taken up into heaven in spirit to receive the revelation)
that angel had "feet" at which John fell down to worship
(pay homage as a superior)
Christ was also in a visible body form - although it appears from
the verses it was far from one that would go unnoticed on earth.
Revelation 1:14 And his head and his hair were white as white wool,
white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace;
and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Alan - I think we have very little place of disagreement on
what Acts 1:9-11 meant - in like manner was referring to His being within a cloud.
In the wilderness GOD appeared to the Israelites as a "cloud by day"
it was "day" when Christ returned to His glorified estate
right before 'their eyes'
Deuteronomy 1:33 Who went in the way before you, to search you out a place to pitch your tents in,
in fire by night, to shew you by what way ye should go, and in a cloud by day.
Exodus 13:21 And Jehovah went before them by day in a pillar of cloud,
to lead them the way, and by night in a pillar of fire,
to give them light; that they might go by day and by night:
It was in that Glory Cloud that Christ returned in judgement a second time
to receive those who were saved and take them home to the mansion in His Father's house
and to avenge the blood of all the prophets upon that wicked generation,
those that continued to seek after a "sign" in spite of all the miracles Christ had already performed.
{Hebrews 10:37 For, yet a little while, how short! how short!
The Coming One will be here, and will not tarry;(Rotherham)
Hebrews 10:37 For yet a very little while
he that comes will come, and will not delay.(Darby)
Hebrews 10:37 For yet a little and a very little while,
and he that is to come will come and will not delay.(Douay)
Hebrews 10:37 for yet a very very little, He who is coming will come, and will not tarry;(Young's Literal)}
Sorry – could not resist….
People say that Christ - will appear soon - what kind of soon
is theirs compared to the soon of the scripture - do they differ?
Do people today mean 1000's of years? How ridiculous can this all get ?!?
Is it even reasonable to presume that Christ will yet convert future Jews
by giving them a very visible and undeniable sign
in a Hollywood style of second coming?
If God intended to convert in such a manner what then of this verse:
Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith:
but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for,
the evidence of things not seen.
Actually, the fulfillment of what Christ said would accompany His second coming
is clearly recorded in history yet men continue to ask for a ‘sign’ and even more evidence.
Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things?
verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one
stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
The destruction of Israel and the Temple marked the end of
the old covenant and the sacrificial system forever but
it also verified that Christ did in fact return when He said He would
in the manner He said He would – in a sign in heaven (sky – BV):
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
and then shall all the tribes of the earth (land – BV) mourn,
and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Christ returned in a glorified state – as the God whom they had always had to do with.
Forgive me for going over what we have already established as a point of agreement
but I wanted to put these variants of views forth as plainly as I find I can.
One last question that I hope entices your curiosity :-)
Did you know that Paul offered sacrifice after he was converted to Christ?
-or-
Why did Paul circumcise a man after teaching against it?
Did you know that only the Preterist view can explain these things?
Brian |
