To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (56 ) 12/6/2003 11:25:35 PM From: marcos Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 190 'they weren't "Palestinians" yet ' - doesn't matter what you choose to call them, they are human beings and indigenous to Palestine, you cannot remove their basic human rights by adding or taking away any particular appellation ... it also doesn't matter that the territory was mandated to the brits, or that it was ruled before then by the ottomans, and before that periodically by the crusaders, and before that who cares - none of that stuff matters when our moral intuition tells us that indigenous have inalienable human rights, punto ' ... result of the creation of Israel ... was that about 800,000 Jews from the Arab lands became refugees ' Yes precisely - as result of the 'creation' of 'Israel', which as an expressly jewish state being set up on muslim lands would be somewhat likely to be viewed as a threat by muslims, don't you think .... considering that zionists knew full well they were dealing with many millions of ignorant people subject to such a whacko religion, they might have chosen a better site for their project, taken Uganda when it was offered to Herzl and company for instance, if they'd gone in there and done the bloody thing right away pre-1918 the indigenous would now be either completely subjugated or killed or run off, and we wouldn't have the [ahem---->] Geneva Accord to discuss today No i don't bother reading electronicintifada, too chomskyesque, himmlerish, it would be like reading a mirror image of your posts, what's the point .... actually haven't read much at all on the issue for months .... but many sources exist, for instance here is a map of the 'settlements' - btselem.org 'Zionism is wrong from the Torah viewpoint, not because many of its adherents are lax in practice or even anti-religious, but because its fundamental principle conflicts with the Torah. ' - jewsnotzionists.org So just as there are varying flavours of zionists, and there are, i grant you that, there live also adherents to religion who are not completely whacked out in styles identical .... viva la diversity It was just too late in the forties to do an ethnic cleansing in Palestine and establish a european colony ... they might have gotten away with it to better degree if they'd dashed in before the twenties, in force and completely ruthless from the start, wiped out the indigenous right to the Jordan ..... but even then, the muslims were still going to come into the oil money later on, there was going to be trouble one way or the other .... poor choice of site, the ugandan indigenous would have been much easier to control, if there absolutely had to be another Whackenstaat, and with luck we would have escaped an Idi Amin as well But better a Menschenstaat imho ... set a superior example, and all that ... 'We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men are created equal, and their wives only slightly more so ..'