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To: Ann Corrigan who wrote (42675)	12/7/2003 4:12:20 PM
From: Condor	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

So, to recap. You feel, wages are being paid to Chinese workers that are too low for them to have a decent existence so you will boycott Walmart and remove the jobs from these low paid Chinese workers so they have no income. Those jobs will then revert to high paid US workers so they can continue a priviledged existence. And imagine, we're doing it all to help the underpriviledged of the world. Heyup.... sounds like a good plan for us. However, consider the following: MR. HARRISS: "Look at what's gone on in China over the last 10 years: There are 300 million people in those eastern coastal provinces who have seen an extraordinary pickup in their standard of living. And you're seeing an economy that is just about to take wing because you now have consumers who were never able to participate in the economy before." Message 19570475 To promote boycotts of Chinese goods on the excuse that it is ultimately helpful to the Chinese peasants is IMO a desperate lie conjured up in order to feel good and justify "keeping it all" for ourselves. cheers C

To: Ann Corrigan who wrote (42675)	12/8/2003 1:29:24 AM
From: macavity	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 74559

Ann we disagree. The concept of a decent childhood is a luxury for most in this world. It is a good and noble idea, but history has demonstrated that it does not belong to all, and to those who currently posses it, they are descendants of those who did not. Let us not forget that all nations have all gone through their Dickensian sweat shops and chimney-sweep phase during an industrialising phase. A sweat-shop is better, on my scale, than slavery. If one starts from theory one can easliy say "No child or slave labor", but if one looks to history and practice this has always been the case in rapidly-industrialising phases. I am not claiming it is some sort of deductive law; rather that there has been no historical exception to nations, unless we select our facts judisciously. The US had slavery and this may well have ended 'technically' when you mentioned, but it would be naive to believe that on that day all affected could re-negotiate their contracts, and that wage rates jumped to reflect it. Did wage rates increase? If yes (and significantly), then I concede to your point graciously. If no, then one must assume that either i) Slave Masters (unlike the Pharoahs before them) somehow where kindly paying "The Market Rate" before abolition, or ii) The economic effect of slavery did not end in 1776. (It is this that is my point: that there was centuries of sub-market wages caused by slavery, not necessarily centuries of 'technical' slavery). As Elmat has conceded before, those of us from developing countries - I am from WayoLand (Nigeria) - do not see/understand/relate to this something for nothing mentality of the West/OECD. Our governments have proved to be exceptionally incompetent and corrupt. We would not instinctively trust our future i.t.o. health/education/retirement to these charlatans. When I read the papers of the US founding fathers, I see a skeptism for government that most in the developing world would agree with. When I look at the US today I just ask myself questions. Yes, I am for child labour! The reason for this is as you mentioned: "What else could they do?". I guarantee you that they would damn well make sure that their children and grand-children had a better life after them. It is this building upon the work of others that have gone before us, that permits our development as a species. Some of us may start from lower bases, but start we must. We cannot (safely) invest in our (shared) future without creating the savings first. The Reasonable Wage? This is one of those false hypothesis that many come out with. We cannot hope to arrive by deduction at a price for any good or service (even labour) no matter how noble our intentions. Price discovery is a dynamic process. Like our desires for "World Peace", "No Disease" and a "Life without suffering", it is an ambition that gives no regard or consideration to its implentation. Without offering the means to the end, it is the thinking of children. It is a soundbite, a headline, devoid of any genuine substance. I honestly believe that the only sure method to this end is (continuous) negotiation between employer and employee bound by the basis of contract, with contracts having limited life. If you can tell me what this wage is then feel free. I am sure that the workers of the world would unite around it. Whether you can find anyone to employ them, or buy their goods and services I would not know. -macavity

To: Ann Corrigan who wrote (42675)	12/8/2003 12:27:17 PM
From: GraceZ	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 74559

You are wrong about child labor. Those youngsters are entitled to childhood In agrarian economies children always worked. Very few would say that a child who grows up working on a family farm or ranch has had their childhood stolen. Children in an agrarian economy are seen as an asset because it means there are more hands to help. The problems arise when a country moves from agrarian to industrial. Children which were once an asset are now a liability unless they continue to work. It took the US about three generations to make that adjustment. My grandparents had 23 children because they were still stuck with the idea that children were an asset but my sisters all stopped at two because by then it was clear children were a financial liability. A country can't adjust to this change over night, it takes several generations for them to adjust to this basic change. You risk wholesale abandonment of children or infanticide by imposing our view of childhood on countries that only recently moved away from an agrarian economy.